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"surprising" Omissions In National Armo(U)Ries


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#21 Dawes

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 1513 PM

Has Canada ever operated the TOW missile system? Seems like those are everywhere.


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#22 R011

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 1811 PM

Yes. TOW was in service beginning in the early seventies.
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#23 Chris Werb

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 0810 AM

I think Sweden sold it's entire inventory of BILL 2 ATGMS and launchers and the factory that made them to the Saudis in 2013, leaving their infantry without a truly man portable ATGM. They still have TOW in service. To be fair, they have NLAW, which is probably the best "unguided" shoulder launched AT weapon out there, but no portable ATGWs is a suprising omission, particularly as they had a really good one in service and dumped it without explanation.


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#24 Dawes

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 0819 AM

Current TOW's are wireless, which extends their range a bit. Still a little unusual to see an antitank/antistructure missile come packed in a wirebound wooden box.


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#25 Panzermann

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1108 AM

I think Sweden sold it's entire inventory of BILL 2 ATGMS and launchers and the factory that made them to the Saudis in 2013, leaving their infantry without a truly man portable ATGM. They still have TOW in service. To be fair, they have NLAW, which is probably the best "unguided" shoulder launched AT weapon out there, but no portable ATGWs is a suprising omission, particularly as they had a really good one in service and dumped it without explanation.


I am sure the reasons were the ususal "to save money" and "world peace has broken out".
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#26 wendist

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1140 AM

The "BILL 2-factory" in Saudi-Arabia was never built as far as I know, because the Swedish government terminated a defence cooperation agreement which apparently pissed off the Saudis something terribly. SAAB still has the BILL 2 for sale on its website, so presumably there is still a capability to provide the Swedish army with the weapon should they want it. But they don't.


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#27 Chris Werb

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1302 PM

Is it that the Swedish Army doesn't want it or that the government doesn't want to pay to reinstate it?


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#28 wendist

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1333 PM

Do you have to ask? :D The latest political stink here in Sweden was when the latest multi-party defence commission publicised their report, aka shopping list, and the Socialdemocrats, who of course had a representative in the commission the whole time, suddenly declares that they really don't want to spend the kind of money needed. Now apparently is the time for new negotiations to decide exactly what in that shopping list will actually materialise. The governments opening bid was for something like five billion when the commission had planned for 22 billion. You think they could have mentioned something when they where still working on that list but noooo, that's not nearly as fun. Politics as usual I suppose. 


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#29 2805662

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 0010 AM

I think Australia still has the Browning as standard.

Ours are all Inglis wartime manufacture. I understand the UK replaced those in the late sixties with new builds. I don't know how old Australia's are. If Wikipedia is right, they may be late eighties/ early nineties made - and probably replaced older Brownings.

There was a buy of new-build Mk3s in 2008.
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#30 Simon Tan

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 0447 AM

FN dropped the HiPower in 2018 IIRC.


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#31 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 0934 AM

Apparently it, or something very like it, is still in production in India, Argentina and Turkey. 


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#32 Olof Larsson

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1048 AM

Is it that the Swedish Army doesn't want it or that the government doesn't want to pay to reinstate it?

 

Well. If the army had them, they would still use them,

but if they have to get new ATGM's, they seem to prefer a new 3rd generation system like the Eurospike, MMP or Javelin.

 

Not that they have the money to get a new missile system anyway.


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#33 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1053 AM

 

Is it that the Swedish Army doesn't want it or that the government doesn't want to pay to reinstate it?

 

Well. If the army had them, they would still use them,

but if they have to get new ATGM's, they seem to prefer a new 3rd generation system like the Eurospike, MMP or Javelin.

 

Not that they have the money to get a new missile system anyway.

 

 

Not sure about Javelin - the lack of fire and update and the single mode sensor are quite limiting compared to the latest Spikes and MMP. Norway are already looking to replace theirs and France only purchased Javelin as a stop-gap.


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#34 Dawes

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1315 PM

Although heavy, expensive, and somewhat dated by now, something like 5,000 Javelins have been fired in combat. Results seem to have been positive, although there have been criticisms of using an expensive missile to target a sniper or machine gun position. Production of the "F" model has started and a "G" version is anticipated. I think that most upgrades center on improving the warhead and bringing the electronics up to date.


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#35 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1328 PM

The main problem is the rear facing rocket motor which precludes any kind of spooling fibre optic solution.


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#36 Dawes

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1341 PM

One advantage to Javelin is it's launch-and-leave feature. Once it's locked on and fired, the operator can "get out of Dodge" in a hurry. I'm not sure if any fiber-optic missiles have that option. Does Spike require the operator to guide it to impact?

 

TOW has certainly been successful over the decades, so maybe "launch and leave" is overrated?


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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1709 PM

All the (man or team portable) fiber optic missiles have a launch and leave option. I suspect TOW has the advantage of a relatively inexpensive round as it lacks a seeker. Recent launcher updates have given it much better optics, the same position determining capabilities as the latest Javelin CLUs and automatic target tracking, so it's a good complement to Javelin if you accept the limitation that it has to have line of sight from launcher to target throughout the engagement. The British Army has an NLOS ATGM in service in Exactor, but in very limited quantities. With the proliferation of hard kill active protection systems I think we may see a return to kinetic forms of attack and something akin to LOSAT, only smaller, to take advantage of recent advances in propulsion technology. Armed or suicide drones with a degree of autonomy may take on some ATGW roles too.
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#38 Dawes

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1755 PM

If all else fails, I would imagine that an APS would have difficulty with an incoming GBU-12. 


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#39 Burncycle360

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 1850 PM

One advantage to Javelin is it's launch-and-leave feature. Once it's locked on and fired, the operator can "get out of Dodge" in a hurry. I'm not sure if any fiber-optic missiles have that option. Does Spike require the operator to guide it to impact?

 

TOW has certainly been successful over the decades, so maybe "launch and leave" is overrated?


Spike can work either way (man in the loop or fire and forget)

Fire and forget lets you shoot and scoot,  but you don't have to be exposed to direct return fire with man in the loop either since it uses fiber optic datalink -- you can see a target, scoot back a little into defilade, then fire in that direction and lock on after launch, even if they go into defilade.


Edited by Burncycle360, 30 June 2019 - 1854 PM.

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#40 shep854

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 2152 PM

I think Australia still has the Browning as standard.

Ours are all Inglis wartime manufacture. I understand the UK replaced those in the late sixties with new builds. I don't know how old Australia's are. If Wikipedia is right, they may be late eighties/ early nineties made - and probably replaced older Brownings.
I just saw a Canadian Army moto video with soldiers using what look like Sigs, but no Brownings. Supplement standard, perhaps?
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