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Could The Germans Have Successfully Propagated Sealion Without Air Supremacy


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#601 Rich

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0045 AM

 

You brought up the seaborne and intelligence part of it to set up a strawman.

Am I really spitballing? I suggested an airborne operation would succeed and you provided the detailed information that showed tha IoW was indeed possible in the same vain as Crete.

 

Yeah you're spitballing and no, I'm not setting up a strawman.

 

Great, you've discovered the winning formula for the Herrenvolk.

 

Have fun.


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#602 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0141 AM

 

Well, im willfully obtuse as many on this site probably correctly point out, but if the objective is to get the British to attack Germany, why did they drive them out of France? :) If they mean to Attack Britain, then attack Britain. But to my mind, attacking them to convince them to attack Germans... I dont get it. But thats just me.
 
As said, we let a piece of our sacred territory be occupied without much contest. Hell, we even sold Germany Heligoland before WW1, and that was a British territory as well. Churchill would give up any amount of territory up to Whitehall, as long as he was ideally placed to win.


They certainly did come do grips with the Brits in France. The RAF didn't fully commit to it to the chagrin of the French. Then the Brits left the continent so rudely at Dunkirk.

The Channel Islands comparison really isn't comparable since taking those led nowhere.

We know that a full Sealion had no chance, so this is a more plausible scenario to maintain the initiative and keep the pressure on.

 

 

Misnomer. The last Brits didnt leave France until the fall of France. The RAF tactical squadrons were still fighting till the end, and the 51st Highland Division got overrun at La Havre with their french counterparts IIRC. It was only French mythmakers that the British 'Abandoned' France that allowed this myth to take hold.

 

Yes, thats entirely my point. The channel islands led nowhere. You already said taking the Isle of Wight was designed not to lead anywhere because the British would attack. I submit, the British could happily have let the Germans starve whilst they sank all their amphibious shipping, and take all the rest after they had turned cannibal later. There was no reason for us to respond in such a situation. It would just be a smaller scale Stalingrad, with the water, which we dominated, the surrounding armies. It would achieve nothing.

 

Here are a couple of ideas that, sealion not working, would have achieved a lot more. Taking Gibraltar and Malta. I dont submit they were easy to take, or even likely to be taken. Just that they had more success than this, and their strategic outcome is far more clear. 
 


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#603 R011

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0318 AM


 I've said nothing about any seaborne element nor intelligence. There'd probably be a seaborne element, but of what and when, I don't know. As far intelligence goes, Germans pretty consistently had bad information so that'd be the same.

Sealion they couldn't do, but this appears within grasp.
 

 
I know you didn't; it's pretty obvious you're spitballing.
 
Okay. What seaborne element then? The Sealion forces? Not sure you have enough beach. And the same problems that applied to the actual Sealion plan still apply; that doesn't change because you changed the geography. In fact, its worse, because the response time for major RN elements is shorter. Nor does the Luftwaffe catch a break.
 
Anyway, I'm pretty gobsmacked this episode of the Twilight Zone keeps running.
 
You brought up the seaborne and intelligence part of it to set up a strawman.

Am I really spitballing? I suggested an airborne operation would succeed and you provided the detailed information that showed tha IoW was indeed possible in the same vain as Crete.

The difference being they could supply Crete after taking it snd the Allies could do nothing. There would be no resupply, replacements, or reinforcement of forces in the Isle of Wight and the British would be able to concentrate superior forces and counter attack.
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#604 R011

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0325 AM

The problem with raking Gibraltar is that they either need Spain on side or they need to invade Spain themselves.

Franco knew Germany couldn't replace food and fuel exports he would lose nor was retaking Gibraltar a high priority for him given the need to consolidate and rebuild following their Civil War.

We've also discussed invading Spain. If I recall, the consensus was that it would not be easy.
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#605 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0342 AM

Spain nearly was on side in 1940. From my understanding Franco was flirting with joining the German war effort. At the very least its conceivable that with the right greasing of palms he might have allowed free transit. It wouldnt have taken substantial forces I personally believe.

 

Could Franco have maintain imports and somehow stop the British blockading him whilst giving Germany free transit? I agree it seems very unlikely.


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#606 R011

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0359 AM

My impression that Franco, advised by Canaris, deliberately demanded more from Hitler than Hitler was prepared to give so as to be able to remain neutral.
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#607 Rick

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0411 AM

The problem with raking Gibraltar is that they either need Spain on side or they need to invade Spain themselves.

Franco knew Germany couldn't replace food and fuel exports he would lose nor was retaking Gibraltar a high priority for him given the need to consolidate and rebuild following their Civil War.

We've also discussed invading Spain. If I recall, the consensus was that it would not be easy.

I've occasionally idly wondered if Italy, instead of trying to invade France, would have been better off to give Malta a try? But, then I answer myself by looking at how they did in Greece and France...


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#608 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 April 2020 - 0428 AM

They could have done Malta at any time up to 1942 before the Spitfires arrived. But they didnt. Ultimately it would have been easier to resupply than North Africa, and if they took Malta, North Africa would have been increasingly easy for Germany to supply.

https://en.wikipedia...ration_Herkules

 

Instead they prefered to piss away Eliteairborne troops on Crete, which I cant see gave them any advantage, other than perhaps making bombing raids on Romania more difficult. Its still impossible to understand.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 06 April 2020 - 0428 AM.

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