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Hep/hesh Vs He


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#1 John_Ford

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 1213 PM

    This is more directed to the 105 MM users,   120 is such a mish mash of MPAT, HEAT and other geee wiz ordy.    Danes had a true HE round for the Leo I they used in Bosnia.    US used/issues a HEP/HESH round for use in the MGS Stryker.   Brit/Commonwealth Folks  liked the HESH round as both General Demolition round as well as Anti Armor round up until recently.   

 

I like HEP for its duality function.   I do however see the utility of a dedicated HE round.   Nick Moran had far more experience then most With His Tank Company in Iraq and used MPAT almost exclusively.   What saith the forum?      


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#2 Ssnake

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 1430 PM

HESH isn't entirely bad but works only in a narrow velocity band (requiring precision measurement of range, meteo conditions, and target movement prediction), and it depends on a hard surface to splat against. Spaced armor easily defends against it.

 

I like the PELE concept for its simplicity and because it completely eliminates UXO issues.

 

Other than that, programmable fuzes and prefragmented warheads are the way to go for direct fire HE rounds, like DM11/DM22. (Horribly) expensive, yes, but will work reliably against a very wide range of target arrays. Program it for airburst against a dispersed target in a concealed position. The forward cone of fragments will effectively deal with that. Your infantry is in a bunker? Delayed impact. for everything else, quick fuze impact mode. 

 

Cannister rounds are also pretty awesome, but only for short ranges, and the question is how many specialized rounds you actually want to lug around. If you want to have just two types of ammo - trusty ole APFSDS being one - the HE round with programmable fuze is the most versatile complementary round, hands down.


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#3 17thfabn

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 1852 PM

If I recall correctly the U.S. M1 with 120 mm in the second Gulf War carried only APFSDS and HEAT projectiles. There were instances were using HEAT to defeat obstacles they had great difficulty. 

 

For bunker busting and area targets HE is much more effective than HEAT or MPAT. A well designed HE will have more explosive fill and better fragmentation.  A 120 MM HE round can probably disable most APC and IFV.

 

Since the fall of sadam hussean's government the vast majority of targets fired on by US M1 tanks would have been best serviced by a true H.E. projectile rather than HEAT  or MPAT. I would guess that a HE round would be less expensive. And a simple time fuse would be cheaper than the fancy fuses. But I am more familiar with artillery ammunition.


Edited by 17thfabn, 24 April 2020 - 1313 PM.

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#4 Colin

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0144 AM

The HESH worked particularly well in Afghanistan, apparently obliterating Grape drying huts that the 25mm could barely hurt. In fact the main complaint about the Leo 2's coming in was a lack of a suitable HESH like round.  


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#5 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0157 AM

The HESH worked particularly well in Afghanistan, apparently obliterating Grape drying huts that the 25mm could barely hurt. In fact the main complaint about the Leo 2's coming in was a lack of a suitable HESH like round.  

:D


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#6 KV7

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0200 AM

Were mechanical VTF HE rounds ever made for tank guns ? HE on delay seems like a useful thing to have for lots of targets.


Edited by KV7, 25 April 2020 - 0443 AM.

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#7 Ssnake

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0346 AM

I think the 105mm Beehive fits your definition; at least, the timer was mechanically set before loading.


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#8 rohala

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0516 AM

What was the usefulness of APFSDS rounds in Iraq (after the end of the invasion in 2003) and Afghanistan? Why wold a tank even bother carrying such ammunition? Or am I missing something?


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#9 Interlinked

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0602 AM

In fact the main complaint about the Leo 2's coming in was a lack of a suitable HESH like round.  


Not exactly surprising that HEAT isn't as good as HESH for demolishing even small huts. But where did these complaints come from?
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#10 Ssnake

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0801 AM

APFSDS rounds can serve a (very secondary) role in low intensity conflicts as a long range sniper round (up to 6km in direct fire) thanks to ballistic superelevation substitution. Basically, you measure the range, index HEAT, then enter a different range (say, 2700m) that has the equivalent superelevation as APFSDS for the actually measured range (like, 5,500m). That way you can extend the range of the system for (very few, very specific) targets. Also, in LIC you could possible substitute all APFSDS rounds for APFSDS PELE rounds which offer a greater effect on target at the expense of a reduced penetration limit.


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#11 Ssnake

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 0804 AM

Not exactly surprising that HEAT isn't as good as HESH for demolishing even small huts. But where did these complaints come from?

 

Canada and Denmark, I suppose - the two countries that operated Leoard 2s in Afghanistan. Denmark went at length to find adequate alternatives, and procured both 120mm Canister and both DM33 and DM12A1 PELE initially, later also Rh31/DM11 HE.


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#12 bojan

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 1339 PM

In local conflicts prefered solution to a concrete basement (example of which I have posted previously) has been 100mm AP from T-55. Enough damage to the occupiers of such position while not creating rubble like HE.


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#13 TTK Ciar

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 1835 PM

Were mechanical VTF HE rounds ever made for tank guns ? HE on delay seems like a useful thing to have for lots of targets.

M908 HE-OR was made for 120mm, but I've not heard of anything equivalent for 105mm.


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#14 GARGEAN

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Posted 26 April 2020 - 1532 PM

Were mechanical VTF HE rounds ever made for tank guns ? HE on delay seems like a useful thing to have for lots of targets.

WDYM by mechanical? Cuz soviet HE-FRAG had fuze with two delay modes (fast and show), and with Ainet it added airburst.
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#15 KV7

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Posted 26 April 2020 - 1722 PM

 

Were mechanical VTF HE rounds ever made for tank guns ? HE on delay seems like a useful thing to have for lots of targets.

WDYM by mechanical? Cuz soviet HE-FRAG had fuze with two delay modes (fast and show), and with Ainet it added airburst.

 

Set either by hand or some mechanical and not electrical device. How do you set the delay on 125 mm HE-FRAG ?


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#16 Interlinked

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 0133 AM

The fuze delay and sensitivity on all Soviet HE-Frag shells is determined by a combination of the protective cap and the fuze delay setting itself. A simple T-wrench is issued to set the fuze delay. The cap is there to reduce the sensitivity of the fuze. The cap is affixed onto the fuze by default and you can take it off by just unscrewing it. 

 

WVNBPFl.png

 

Since there are two factors that determine the fuze sensitivity and delay, there are 4 possible settings in total (2^2 = 4).

  1. By default, the shells have the protective cap installed and the fuze is set to the superquick mode at the factory, so you get a compromise between a HE effect and a fragmentation effect, hence "HE-Frag".
  2. If you take the protective cap off, it becomes a Frag shell. It detonates on any surface - snow, leaves, even hailstones.
  3. If you use your special tool to set the fuze to the HE mode and you take the protective cap off, you get a HE shell that's suitable for firing at foxholes in snow, because you need the high sensitivity for the fuze to properly initiate on snow.
  4. If you set the fuze to the HE mode but keep the cap on, it becomes a delayed HE shell that's suitable for ricochet shots and for firing at trenches in dirt.

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#17 KV7

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 0152 AM

Yes I know how that type of fuse works -  I mean how is it set on T series MBT with an auto-loader ? There isn't a human loader to set the fuse before manually loading it. And I have never heard of any sort of automatic fuse setting device.

Is the protocol to choose the delay once the target is acquired to preset before loading some HE to super quick and some to delay, and then load from the sector of the auto-loader that has the desired fuse setting ?


Edited by KV7, 27 April 2020 - 0928 AM.

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#18 Interlinked

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 0218 AM

Autoloader has a semi-automatic mode. Commander controls each step of the loading process from a control panel. In the case of the T-72, the commander flips a switch to raise the tray up to the ramming position ("дос"), sets the fuze, then flips some other switches to ram the shell, then the propellant charge, then return the tray to the carousel.

 

Video from tank academy: https://youtu.be/BymLH03oIJs?t=352 

 

Protocol is that commander sees target and then sets the fuze. Then he tells the gunner to fire.


Edited by Interlinked, 27 April 2020 - 0220 AM.

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#19 KV7

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 0223 AM

Thanks, that is good information.


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#20 Colin

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 0137 AM

 

Not exactly surprising that HEAT isn't as good as HESH for demolishing even small huts. But where did these complaints come from?

 

Canada and Denmark, I suppose - the two countries that operated Leoard 2s in Afghanistan. Denmark went at length to find adequate alternatives, and procured both 120mm Canister and both DM33 and DM12A1 PELE initially, later also Rh31/DM11 HE.

 

Yes, HESH basically destroyed the Huts which were very heavily built, HEAT was ok and sabot punched nice small holes in them, going by what numerous tanker there said. It was the thick compound walls and huts that created the need for the tanks. After arrival the tanks started to show their abilities beyond what was envisioned.  


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