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#21 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 0522 AM

There is a good TV programme on BBC4 of late on the development of weapons in the UK since medieval times, and it pointed in the first episode to the reintroduction of clubs and maces on the WW1 battlefield. They looked like they would have been more suited for Agincourt.

 

In a Richard Holmes book, a former British officer took a tour of the some battlefields in the 1920's, and went to pick up what he thought was an old Lee Enfield dropped in the mud of a trench. It turned out to be a Brown Bess Musket, presumably dropped by Wellingtons Army as they passed there on the way to Paris in 1815. Makes you think....

 

I had a fondness for the War of the Roses multiplayer game, but the devs eventually borked it and its now been taken off steam. A damn shame, it was about the only medieval combat game of that time out there.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 03 May 2019 - 0523 AM.

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#22 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 0918 AM

There is a good TV programme on BBC4 of late on the development of weapons in the UK since medieval times, and it pointed in the first episode to the reintroduction of clubs and maces on the WW1 battlefield. They looked like they would have been more suited for Agincourt.

 

In a Richard Holmes book, a former British officer took a tour of the some battlefields in the 1920's, and went to pick up what he thought was an old Lee Enfield dropped in the mud of a trench. It turned out to be a Brown Bess Musket, presumably dropped by Wellingtons Army as they passed there on the way to Paris in 1815. Makes you think....

 

I had a fondness for the War of the Roses multiplayer game, but the devs eventually borked it and its now been taken off steam. A damn shame, it was about the only medieval combat game of that time out there.

 

Yes, I'm watching that too. It covers ground that's been covered dozens of times, but it's still fun to watch. I didn't get why the matchlock musket shown was a huge advance on the (relatively advanced) arquebus shown earlier though.


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#23 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 0936 AM

Cheap to build. I guess its a similar thing to the musket over the Longbow, it wasnt as accurate and had nothing like the rate of fire, but it was cheap to build, and everyone could use it. I guess you could see the arquebus as a stepping stone between the medieval weapon and the arrival of the machine age.

 

Episode 3 is interesting, its got the siege of Sidney Street and the Mauser Pistol. The hysteria over terrorism and an armed populace will much amuse you.


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#24 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1000 AM

What specifically about the matchlock musket made it cheaper to build? All I can think of is that the lockwork may have been less complex. I'm familiar with the Sidney Street episode :)


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#25 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1044 AM

Less the musket than the ammunition. There was an OU documentary on about Henry V, and apparently before Agincourt they mandated that everyone in the kingdom whom owned a goose had to donate a tail feather. Which when you think about how many arrows they got through at Agincourt illustrates why big battles were not all that common. It was a major industrial achievement to achieve the kind of arrow storm they had there. On top of that, you have the training issue.  I think Edward I mandated that there had to be time put aside for archery training on every village green, to ensure he had enough longbowmen. Even then, as the Mary Rose illusrated, longbowmen were not so much trained as grown. They were all physically deformed to one extent or another.

 

Conversely all you needed for a musket, when it was made, was gunpowder and lead. Gunpower is expensive but at least you could stockpile it. Lead, well if you get desperate, there is always a church roof. :)


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#26 Stargrunt6

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1159 AM


Its probably why close combat worked so well.

 
Have you played the Gateway to Caen one? That looks really good. CCABTF was my favourite wargame (as opposed to milsim) of all time.

I have it. It's terrible. I wrote a review about the new CC in one of these threads. They're broken.
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#27 Skywalkre

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1238 PM

 

Which to be strictly fair, does sound pretty much like WW1. Although it doesnt really make a very interesting game I would have thought.

 

A game based around Stormtroopers or trench raids would be more interesting I would have thought. You would be on similar ground as Rainbow 6 but with WW1 weapons (and clubs).

 

There are lots of Sturmtruppen in Verdun (the variety of units and equipment is one of the big plusses of the game). You get clubs, entrenching tools and even daggers. On one occasion recently, I'd been camping in no mans land with a luger PO8 when my 96 rounds of ammo ran out. I thought what have I got to lose, drew a trench knife and jumped into the closest enemy trench. I took out two enemies and the game promptly ended :)

 

Knives are what made me walk away from FPS titles a decade ago.  In the early days of FPS I was huge into Unreal Tournament and eventually settled on a game called Tribes.  Didn't play anything while I was in the Army.  When I got out the scene had changed and I tried out one of the early Call of Duty titles which was apparently THE big thing in the genre.  I'd unload half a mag into a player and they wouldn't drop.  They'd keep coming at me and a single hit from a knife would kill me.  Seriously?  :blink:

 

Haven't gone back since.


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#28 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1242 PM

The non existent weapon physics in Verdun mean that someone can step out of a corner, spin around and shoulder and shoot you with a Lewis Gun faster than you can pull the trigger on your Luger. If that wasn't bad enough, I have had infantry teleport in on me and shoot or bayonet me. Now that's really bizarre.


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#29 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1244 PM

 

 

Its probably why close combat worked so well.

 
Have you played the Gateway to Caen one? That looks really good. CCABTF was my favourite wargame (as opposed to milsim) of all time.

I have it. It's terrible. I wrote a review about the new CC in one of these threads. They're broken.

 

 

Oh dear. I'll forget that idea then.


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#30 Stargrunt6

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 1616 PM

Yeah, money wasted by me.

CC ABTF had a bunch of mods, including WW1 and Pacific front.
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#31 Mr King

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Posted 03 May 2019 - 2020 PM

Ive not tried Squad, ive heard good things about that. And the same engine has been used in Post Scriptum, which again, looks good, and ive heard good things from a friend.  But of course, such things are dependent on good clans, buddies who give each other mutual support. If you end up in a squad of 12 year olds, as I seemed to do all the time on World of Tanks, you're fucked.

 

But thats multiplayer. I quite like the idea of playing standalone games. It is kind of strange to me we could get decent AI in games like Close combat 20 plus years ago, but nobody seems to manage it with a 3d engine. Close Combat isnt too bad, but of course, its not really RTS, and certainly not a sim.

 

Like you say, it shouldnt be that hard. Ironically games like Rainbow 6 (which date back years) and even Konami's SAS squad game seemed to do a far better job of this kind of thing. As one poster here reflected, the very best squad level sim game he ever played was Electronic Arts Seal Team. Which im horrified to see, came out as long ago as 1993....

 

 

I keep wishing and wishing some studio would do a modern version of Seal Team, but with all the effort put into realism like the first game, and not the brainless shooters that are shovelwared out today, It be interesting just to see some games based on the Vietnam conflict that were not multiplayer shooters, and flight sims. Though Chuck Yeager's Air Combat has a special place in my heart next to Seal Team. 


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#32 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 0153 AM

I never managed to get the air combat game, but I played  Chuck Yeagers advanced flight trainer to death on a C64. I kept trying to replicate his NF104 flight in an SR71 and trying to reach 200000 feet (and failing and pulling the wings off it). That was the only flight sim that managed to model proportional control, which with a microswitch joystick was some achievement.

 

Yeah, Id buy another seal team. Fat chance of ever getting one though.


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#33 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 May 2019 - 0826 AM

 

Ive not tried Squad, ive heard good things about that. And the same engine has been used in Post Scriptum, which again, looks good, and ive heard good things from a friend.  But of course, such things are dependent on good clans, buddies who give each other mutual support. If you end up in a squad of 12 year olds, as I seemed to do all the time on World of Tanks, you're fucked.

 

But thats multiplayer. I quite like the idea of playing standalone games. It is kind of strange to me we could get decent AI in games like Close combat 20 plus years ago, but nobody seems to manage it with a 3d engine. Close Combat isnt too bad, but of course, its not really RTS, and certainly not a sim.

 

Like you say, it shouldnt be that hard. Ironically games like Rainbow 6 (which date back years) and even Konami's SAS squad game seemed to do a far better job of this kind of thing. As one poster here reflected, the very best squad level sim game he ever played was Electronic Arts Seal Team. Which im horrified to see, came out as long ago as 1993....

 

 

I keep wishing and wishing some studio would do a modern version of Seal Team, but with all the effort put into realism like the first game, and not the brainless shooters that are shovelwared out today, It be interesting just to see some games based on the Vietnam conflict that were not multiplayer shooters, and flight sims. Though Chuck Yeager's Air Combat has a special place in my heart next to Seal Team. 

 

 

It wouldn't be so bad if they could accurately simulate shooting, or even the basic physics that govern the movement of firearms. No near instantaneously shouldering and shooting a BAR or a Lewis Gun with bench rest accuracy.


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#34 Stefan Fredriksson

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Posted 05 May 2019 - 1228 PM

In at least first two Delta Force games, you were more likely to succeed of you bunny-jumped with a SAW, than lying prone 500 meters away with a sniper rifle (I am generalizing of course). Still fun as hell though.
On the realism plus-side, you ran faster while holding a knife than while a holding a gun.

Most FPS should have the same system as World of Tanks; aim time related to which gun you are carrying..

Edited by Stefan Fredriksson, 05 May 2019 - 1230 PM.

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#35 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 1032 AM

I really liked Delta Force. It was like a 3D version of Airborne Ranger (now that one really takes me back).

 


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#36 Stargrunt6

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 1528 PM

In at least first two Delta Force games, you were more likely to succeed of you bunny-jumped with a SAW, than lying prone 500 meters away with a sniper rifle (I am generalizing of course). Still fun as hell though.
On the realism plus-side, you ran faster while holding a knife than while a holding a gun.

Most FPS should have the same system as World of Tanks; aim time related to which gun you are carrying..


Rainbow Six had a similar aiming system which adjusted accuracy vs character movement and weapon type.
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#37 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 0208 AM

I used to like Rainbow 6. I remember it had an urban pack where you were  in firefights in well known international locations, and I thought to myself 'No terrorist would REALLY fight in a city like this'. Then came Mumbai and the Paris attacks, so they were pretty far sighted in that respect.


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#38 Daan

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 1540 PM

With respect to FPS games: the new map Tallil Outskirts in Squad is very nice. It was inspired by the various airbases bombed and under siege in Iraq and Syria. The map is one of the largest in Squad, but has a lot of micro relief in the form of ditches, bomb craters, concretes slabs from the bombed out HAS etc. The sound of long range fire fights is well done with with bullets whistling overhead, impacts closeby.


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#39 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 May 2019 - 0155 AM

I really must give that a try. It looks my kind of thing. The 3d modelling they did of the MTLB with 30mm was beautiful to behold. It wouldnt look out of place in DCS.


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