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When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible


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#1 Cinaruco

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1818 PM

So, this is awful in so many ways. The cop was more nervous/scared than the subject, subject was not armed nor did he disobeyed the officer, the officer killed him because he has an itchy trigger finger.

 

 

I do not see this any different from abuse of power, he might as well have extorted the guy, at least he would be alive. White victim, no fuss.


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#2 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1832 PM

This one disturbed me the most, probably because the first cops who showed up did everything right, and then Sgt. Idiot came running in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/06/okla-officer-charged-with-murder-in-fatal-shooting-of-man-who-tried-to-set-himself-on-fire/?utm_term=.4f87d5a3c3bd


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#3 rohala

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1857 PM

What's the context in the OP's video? I mean the shooter pretty much executed the guy, but he and his colleague were clearly very afraid of something. Something bad must have happened earlier.

EDIT: I clicked the link to youtube and read some comments but I'm hardly any wiser.

Edited by rohala, 08 December 2017 - 1904 PM.

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#4 toysoldier

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1904 PM

Poor sap was seen wielding a BBgun through a hotel window... need i say more?
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#5 Cinaruco

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1913 PM

So executing him when he is surrendering is acceptable? Can't see it.
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#6 rohala

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1925 PM

I don't think he was being ironic.

Still, the video does not agree with just someone pointing a gun out of a window.
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#7 DKTanker

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1927 PM

So, this is awful in so many ways. The cop was more nervous/scared than the subject, subject was not armed nor did he disobeyed the officer, the officer killed him because he has an itchy trigger finger.

 

I do not see this any different from abuse of power, he might as well have extorted the guy, at least he would be alive. White victim, no fuss.

White lives don't matter.


Edited by DKTanker, 08 December 2017 - 1927 PM.

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#8 DKTanker

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 1933 PM

So, this is awful in so many ways. The cop was more nervous/scared than the subject, subject was not armed nor did he disobeyed the officer, the officer killed him because he has an itchy trigger finger.
 
 
I do not see this any different from abuse of power, he might as well have extorted the guy, at least he would be alive. White victim, no fuss.

Perp with a badge was looking for an excuse to murder the young man and then was rewarded with a not guilty verdict.  


Edited by DKTanker, 08 December 2017 - 1939 PM.

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#9 Justin

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2011 PM

I mean he does reach to the back of his waist band right at the end and rotate his body at 4:21 looks like he might be pulling a gun.  If I suspected someone might have a gun then that would make me think twice also.  I'm not sure why they just didn't send someone out to cuff him when he was laying prone instead of making him crawl all the way to the officer since it sounded like there was multipe police at the site.  He disobeyed the officer several times in my opinion (obviously due to stupidity with what we know after the fact) in the video i watched and you never know if they are armed or not until after the fact.  I'm not sure if he was on drugs or drunk or just scared out of his mind but he wasn't acting intelligently, the cop was being a dick regardless.

 

BB gun or not its hard to tell when responding to a call like that and most of the general population probably can't tell the difference.  I didn't listen to the trial or know all the details like if that location is known for having lots of issues.  I don't think the cop acted professionally and it sounded like they must have had some new guy with them because they kept having to tell him he was doing stuff wrong at the beginning.  Regardless if you told me before I watched that video "officer responding to a suspect with a gun" and I wasn't told afterwards it just ended up being a BB gun that he wasn't armed with I don't know that I would fault him for the outcome depending on how they are trained etc.  I think we have some other law enforcement members on the board so they probably can break this down and say yes he followed his training or no this was done completely wrong and should at least be a manslaughter charge.

 

In general I think there is too large a number of Police that abuse the power they have and are able to get away with things because of the good old boys club and system that supports them.  I think this was a tragic accident and no one is going to come away the better for it.  I suspect this cop and the department may come away the loser once the civil settlements start to roll in and that is probably justified in this case.  I hear of too many stories of SWAT teams busting into the wrong houses and shooting people accidentally that had nothing to do with what they were out there to do and just being like sorry it was a mistake sucks to be you not our fault.  This will never change unless they start to be held accountable.  There is no reason that Video shouldn't be available for every police encounter in this age.  In cases where officers body cameras or patrol car cameras were switched off or they forgot to turn them on they should be immediately fired.  There has already been a couple of cases where officers body camera footage showed accounts much different than what the police officers claimed or I believe there is even one where the officer is caught planting drugs because he didn't realize his body camera recorded footage from a set time before he turned it on.


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#10 Martin M

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2012 PM

wow ………………….

 

The topic title is well chosen.

 

The guy has a weapon pointed at him, and gets constant detailed instructions what to do and not to under threats of getting shot, which he even if drunk has understood and is scared as hell, doesn´t always know what to do, feet crossed, hands here, hands there, fingers  interlaced,  do this and that yell and yell harder still or else …… and so forth.

This goes on for fairly long, with the woman in the meantime being secured, also with great yelling and detailed instructions, but she and her captour make it at least. The chance of doing something wrong is immense after such a long standoff. The other guy after 3-4 minutes just does something wrong,  and the cop, who has had his finger on or near the trigger for that time or longer, just goes nuts,  or as DK said mayby he wanted to shoot him anyway.  Of course the police don´t know if there are further people armed in the room, but the cop doesn´t seem to bother much about the doorway, and mainly has the guy under his sights.  Crazy.

You guys figure out what should be done differently; it´s not something I get paid for, I don´t know, but it sure looked like murder to me.


Edited by Martin M, 08 December 2017 - 2016 PM.

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#11 Skywalkre

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2045 PM

I mean he does reach to the back of his waist band right at the end and rotate his body at 4:21 looks like he might be pulling a gun.  If I suspected someone might have a gun then that would make me think twice also.  I'm not sure why they just didn't send someone out to cuff him when he was laying prone instead of making him crawl all the way to the officer since it sounded like there was multipe police at the site.  He disobeyed the officer several times in my opinion (obviously due to stupidity with what we know after the fact) in the video i watched and you never know if they are armed or not until after the fact.  I'm not sure if he was on drugs or drunk or just scared out of his mind but he wasn't acting intelligently, the cop was being a dick regardless.

 

BB gun or not its hard to tell when responding to a call like that and most of the general population probably can't tell the difference.  I didn't listen to the trial or know all the details like if that location is known for having lots of issues.  I don't think the cop acted professionally and it sounded like they must have had some new guy with them because they kept having to tell him he was doing stuff wrong at the beginning.  Regardless if you told me before I watched that video "officer responding to a suspect with a gun" and I wasn't told afterwards it just ended up being a BB gun that he wasn't armed with I don't know that I would fault him for the outcome depending on how they are trained etc.  I think we have some other law enforcement members on the board so they probably can break this down and say yes he followed his training or no this was done completely wrong and should at least be a manslaughter charge.

 

In general I think there is too large a number of Police that abuse the power they have and are able to get away with things because of the good old boys club and system that supports them.  I think this was a tragic accident and no one is going to come away the better for it.  I suspect this cop and the department may come away the loser once the civil settlements start to roll in and that is probably justified in this case.  I hear of too many stories of SWAT teams busting into the wrong houses and shooting people accidentally that had nothing to do with what they were out there to do and just being like sorry it was a mistake sucks to be you not our fault.  This will never change unless they start to be held accountable.  There is no reason that Video shouldn't be available for every police encounter in this age.  In cases where officers body cameras or patrol car cameras were switched off or they forgot to turn them on they should be immediately fired.  There has already been a couple of cases where officers body camera footage showed accounts much different than what the police officers claimed or I believe there is even one where the officer is caught planting drugs because he didn't realize his body camera recorded footage from a set time before he turned it on.

My first thought when he reached back was his shirt may be hiking up and people are so used to adjusting it that he didn't think.  Just reinforces in these situations the citizen has zero room for error while the cop can simply fall back on "I feared for my life" at the slightest twitch and get away with murder.  I just posted in the Because, America thread about how Michael Slager was only just now sentenced to 20 years in what was a blatantly open-and-shut case from nearly three years ago that somehow ended in a mistrial when the state charged him with murder.  The painful reality is police are rarely charged and found guilty even less often.

 

As for the location Mesa, and the SE valley as a whole, is hardly ridden with crime.  It's actually a nice part of town where many folks purchase homes to raise their family.  As for the officer he was fired shortly after this incident so make of that what you will.

 

Watching the vid I'm just reminded of the new generation of cops Radley Balko describes in Rise of the Warrior Cop (great book that everyone should read) who aren't out to protect and serve but instead think they're fucking Rambo going outside the wire when they go on duty (again, Mesa is a fairly nice town).  IIRC the quote he used in the book to drive home the point was from a LEO in Arizona...


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#12 toysoldier

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2051 PM

I get that a LEO is at all times at risk of being shot, but come on. How scared can you be of a scared drunk sobbing guy crawling on the floor, while you are armed with a rifle? Isn't obvious he´s just trying to pick up his pants? Are you so blinded by fear?
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#13 DKTanker

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2056 PM

I get that a LEO is at all times at risk of being shot, but come on. How scared can you be of a scared drunk sobbing guy crawling on the floor, while you are armed with a rifle? Isn't obvious he´s just trying to pick up his pants? Are you so blinded by fear?

His only fear was that the drunk wouldn't give him a chance for the "righteous" shoot.


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#14 Cinaruco

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2057 PM

He was on the ground, weeping, begging for his life. This was an execution, the cop had no reason to fear for his life. He had his rifle on an unarmed person he kept giving contradictory orders, "hold your hands up! Now crawl over here! I said keep your hands up!"

 

Fucking coward was thinking he was on Iwo Jima.

 

I will say this, if BLM would push for these shootings as they do for obvious fake cases where the LEO was doing his job, they would have universal approval. Police abuse is a thing in every country, but instead of focusing on the abuse they concentrate on "All white people are complicit."


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#15 Justin

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2142 PM

I second Rise of the Warrior Cop.  A great book with a lot of interesting information about the current state of how police departments are run and the mindset they have.  It wasn't obvious to me in the video he was trying to just pick up his pants.  After it was pointed out that is what he was trying to do it makes sense.  I will say the orders seemed contradictory especially the hold your hands up but then he asks him to crawl over.  I think that is why it would have just been smarter to send your partner to cuff him instead of all the unnecessary commands.  I don't think this was an execution or second degree murder but Manslaughter is a different story. Not sure about how smart it is going into a potentially packed hotel with an AR15 either.  Police aren't known for their marksmanship and I would be worried about hitting people in rooms who aren't involved in this.  Innocents being shot by police on accident happens way more than it should.

 

A lot of the problems stem from the attitudes described in the rise of the warrior cop book and the us vs them mentality.  Skywalkre is 100% right in what he says.  It is an attitude and a culture that needs to change.  I don't know how to fix it or the best way to start the culture change.  Regardless this is something that can not be a quick fix and will take decades to correct.  There is the balancing act between safety and security and freedoms and the trade off that people are willing to make to feel safe.  I understand police need to feel like they can do their job effectively but peoples lives and freedoms are at stake on both sides.  Andres is correct about BLM and other groups picking their battles better and this could go a long way to getting things to change.


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#16 Detonable

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2203 PM

Execution is death after a trial of some sort, this was a murder. It's impossible to believe this person was a threat to the officer.
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#17 Nobu

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2320 PM

Daniel Shaver never had a chance. Kneel. Rise. Get down. Put your hands up. Rise. Kneel.

 

I can't imagine what and how his mother felt after seeing how her boy died.


Edited by Nobu, 08 December 2017 - 2324 PM.

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#18 toysoldier

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2327 PM

This "hand to the waist motion interpreted as intention to draw" its gotten too far. Everybody has worn pants at some point in their lives, the damn things slide down and its instinctive to pull them up. Besides, what gun, from what holster? There was no bulk, and frankly drawing from that position must awful. Just like some have said, Rambocop was itching.
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#19 JasonJ

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2330 PM

"while" could have mnade all the differen.

 

"Kneel while keeping your hands up" and such.

 

DIdn't look good at the beginning. AFAIK, cops usually try to use a calming tone of language when communicating. He was with "shut up" at the beginning.


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#20 R011

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 2355 PM

"while" could have mnade all the differen.
 
"Kneel while keeping your hands up" and such.
 
DIdn't look good at the beginning. AFAIK, cops usually try to use a calming tone of language when communicating. He was with "shut up" at the beginning.

Usually, in the incidents I've seen on video, police are shouting at the suspect in a way guaranteed to ratchet up tension and provoke brain lock. That you can have more than one officer doing this at the same time saying different things is even more confusing.
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