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"surprising" Omissions In National Armo(U)Ries


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#1 Chris Werb

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1100 AM

I'm probably not the only one here who has been left scratching his head at the fact that certain armed forces lack some forms of equipment that would seem to fit in well or fill an obvious gap. Here are a few examples just off the top of my head.

 

UK - 120mm mortars, conventional patrol subs and, until recently, a land based area defence SAM

 

US - a viable hand held anti tank weapon (M136 really isn't one and the M3A1 isn't intended to be one).
 

France - heavy lift helicopters 

 

Canada - attack helicopters

 

Belgium - GBAD (it has none whatsoever - even Eire has RBS-70)

 

Feel free to challenge the above examples or add more of your own.


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#2 bojan

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1132 AM

120mm mortars in UK are due the fact that British army never reinforced Bn level firesupport compared to a WW2 level. 8 x 81mm mortar in 1945, 8 x 81mm mortar in 2019... It is a mind boggling.


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#3 Simon Tan

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1133 AM

Dont need more BN level tubes when you HAD AGRA.


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#4 Chris Werb

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1138 AM

120mm mortars in UK are due the fact that British army never reinforced Bn level firesupport compared to a WW2 level. 8 x 81mm mortar in 1945, 8 x 81mm mortar in 2019... It is a mind boggling.

 

You score extra points for knowing the "3 inch" mortar was actually 81mm :)  We did have 4.2" mortars that served in limited numbers until (and including) the Borneo confronation, but they were treated as artillery and operated by the Royal Artillery. I'm guessing they were gone by 1967-8.


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#5 Dawes

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1147 AM

Presumably attack helicopters don't figure in Canada's doctrine?


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#6 bojan

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1225 PM

 

You score extra points for knowing the "3 inch" mortar was actually 81mm

 

Well, local designation "Mortar, 81mm Mk.1/2/3* (e) was kinda giveaway. :)

 

*Apparently there were 3 versions and they survived until 1990s in war storages, being reworked to 82mm in the '60s (as with all other 81mm mortars, whole process only included removing 0.3mm from the inside of the tube on the lathe, since 81mm mortars are 81.4mm anyway).


Edited by bojan, 16 June 2019 - 1227 PM.

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#7 Wobbly Head

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 1246 PM

Presumably attack helicopters don't figure in Canada's doctrine?


Considering the distances involved, slightly left leaning politicians and who our southern neighbours. tanks almost never figured in Canada's doctrine. It was only due to the involvement in Afghanistan and the use of the leopard1 in that conflict that they decided to upgrade to leopard 2.
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#8 Simon Tan

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 2009 PM

Canadia only needs defence helicopters.


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#9 R011

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 2122 PM

Presumably attack helicopters don't figure in Canada's doctrine?


More like they don't fit into the budget. We are certainly happy to use them if others ( i.e. US Army or USMC) provide them.
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#10 TTK Ciar

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 1124 AM

US - Air-droppable light tank (to replace M551, fully phased out since 1996).

Much of world - Cheap top-attack munition for RPG-7 platform.  The technology is available.  I keep waiting for someone to put the pieces together.
 


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#11 sunday

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 1840 PM

Not really surprising, but some countries would do good with some nukes of their own.


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#12 Corinthian

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 2201 PM

I'm probably not the only one here who has been left scratching his head at the fact that certain armed forces lack some forms of equipment that would seem to fit in well or fill an obvious gap. Here are a few examples just off the top of my head.

 

UK - 120mm mortars, conventional patrol subs and, until recently, a land based area defence SAM

 

US - a viable hand held anti tank weapon (M136 really isn't one and the M3A1 isn't intended to be one).
 

France - heavy lift helicopters 

 

Canada - attack helicopters

 

Belgium - GBAD (it has none whatsoever - even Eire has RBS-70)

 

Feel free to challenge the above examples or add more of your own.

 

Philippines - everything in meaningful numbers :lol:


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#13 GARGEAN

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0841 AM

Russia - RPG-7 replacement. Or even new ammo. Using stuff from late 80s when you have RPG-32... Yeah...
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#14 Panzermann

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1257 PM

 

You score extra points for knowing the "3 inch" mortar was actually 81mm

 
Well, local designation "Mortar, 81mm Mk.1/2/3* (e) was kinda giveaway. :)
 
*Apparently there were 3 versions and they survived until 1990s in war storages, being reworked to 82mm in the '60s (as with all other 81mm mortars, whole process only included removing 0.3mm from the inside of the tube on the lathe, since 81mm mortars are 81.4mm anyway).

 


So yugo conversion to the soviet 82 mm bombs. makes sense to standardize on one type. That the brits are still without 120 mm moratas may have to do that LK118 105 mm light guins are in service and that there is maybe some interservice envy going on, that would put 120 mm mortars under the Royal Artillery?
 

 


France - heavy lift helicopters

​

 

Actually the Armee de l'air is looking ard at buying one. Maybe standing up a joint unit with Germany like the C-130J unit.

 

https://www.defensen...e-fighter-jets/

 

Intresting stuff the chief of french air force says there.

 

 

 

For Germany:

 

No Army AAA. the half dozen LeFlaSys Ozelot (Igla or Stinger) are under Luftwaffe control, as are MIM-104 Patriots. Roland and Gepard have been scrapped or sold. the handful of MANTIS systems are also Luftwaffe and not mobile.

 

No self-propelled mortars for the Panzerbrigades. There is only the half dozen Wiesel 2 mortar carriers that are attached to the Artillerielehrbattaillon. they have to make do with nothing or the old worn out Tampella 120mm mortars.

 

No proper modern radio sets, they have to make do with the old SEM-70 -80 -90 series mostly and adhoc bought PRC-117 series to talk to others. Real fun when actually deployed abroad to juggle the different radios signalmen tell me.

 

 

All of these are mostly budgeting and project management shortcomings. And teh myopic expectation that the next conflict looks like the last one. In the German case the expeditionary warfare that has been waged in the last nearly twenty years.


Edited by Panzermann, 19 June 2019 - 1015 AM.

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#15 shep854

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1811 PM

Delete


Edited by shep854, 18 June 2019 - 1813 PM.

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#16 Colin

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 0126 AM

Canada also lacks IFV's, 120mm mortars, Air Defense systems and until recently no ATGM's. They also wanted to replace all the 60mm mortars with automatic grenade launchers....

 

 

Not to mention mundane stuff like winter warfare gear, bridging equipment and tactical trucks.


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#17 R011

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 0331 AM

Yeah, but we are getting previously enjoyed, state-of-the-art a generation ago, ex-RAAF Hornets while we wait for a replacement for the CF-18s we ordered in 1979.

We're also moving right along with a program to replace our WW2 built Browning HPs. We've only been trying since about 2010 with that, though, so it should only be another decade or so.

Edited by R011, 22 June 2019 - 0334 AM.

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#18 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 0358 AM

I think Australia still has the Browning as standard.
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#19 R011

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 0441 AM

I think Australia still has the Browning as standard.


Ours are all Inglis wartime manufacture. I understand the UK replaced those in the late sixties with new builds. I don't know how old Australia's are. If Wikipedia is right, they may be late eighties/ early nineties made - and probably replaced older Brownings.

Edited by R011, 22 June 2019 - 0441 AM.

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#20 arcweasel

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 1429 PM

Canada also lacks IFV's, 120mm mortars, Air Defense systems and until recently no ATGM's. They also wanted to replace all the 60mm mortars with automatic grenade launchers....

 

 

Not to mention mundane stuff like winter warfare gear, bridging equipment and tactical trucks.

When did the ATGW come back?  

 

I'd also add SP artillery (almost any artillery at all really, 37x155mm M777 and some retubed 105mm M2A1 FH seem kinda limited) and an integrated artillery fire direction system

 

Jay


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