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When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible


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#501 Murph

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0529 AM

That story is really odd, I think I will wait for a few more facts to emerge.  


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#502 rmgill

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0738 AM

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 


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#503 Skywalkre

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1815 PM

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 

 

Or for giving the shooter more time to come up with a better story.

 

Latest now from the cop's attorney is that the cop was knocked unconscious and when he woke up was 'fighting for his life.'  One article here mentions that the unconscious bit helps his defense (I'm struggling to see how... if you come back groggy and open fire how are you able to make the proper call?) compared to if he was never knocked unconscious.

 

Still coming across real sketchy so far...


Edited by Skywalkre, 18 June 2019 - 1820 PM.

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#504 Murph

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 2042 PM

 

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 

 

Or for giving the shooter more time to come up with a better story.

 

Latest now from the cop's attorney is that the cop was knocked unconscious and when he woke up was 'fighting for his life.'  One article here mentions that the unconscious bit helps his defense (I'm struggling to see how... if you come back groggy and open fire how are you able to make the proper call?) compared to if he was never knocked unconscious.

 

Still coming across real sketchy so far...

 

Can't disagree.  Something about the story sounds...off.  I know there was a doctrine called "disparity of force" but that was more for a 5'3" 115lb female fighting off a 200+ lb 6'+ man.  


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#505 Murph

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 0520 AM

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 

Yeah store video will make all the difference.  VIdeo tells the tale, again why Body Cameras should be required for ALL law enforcement in the US, not just the real cops, but the Feebs as well.  


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#506 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 0637 AM

 

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 

Yeah store video will make all the difference.  VIdeo tells the tale, again why Body Cameras should be required for ALL law enforcement in the US, not just the real cops, but the Feebs as well.  

 

 

And carcams pointing 4 directions away from the cruiser. With the recording drives locked in a heavy steel box in the trunk (given adequate heat sinking etc). 

 

Effort needs to be spent inhibiting bangers from killing solo LEOs. It'll also reduce the he said/she said nonsense going on. 


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#507 Jeff

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 1625 PM

 

 

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 

Yeah store video will make all the difference.  VIdeo tells the tale, again why Body Cameras should be required for ALL law enforcement in the US, not just the real cops, but the Feebs as well.  

 

 

And carcams pointing 4 directions away from the cruiser. With the recording drives locked in a heavy steel box in the trunk (given adequate heat sinking etc). 

 

Effort needs to be spent inhibiting bangers from killing solo LEOs. It'll also reduce the he said/she said nonsense going on. 

 

 

The latest Ford SUV interceptor has 360 degree camera coverage and will actually alert the driver, lock doors and close windows if it detects a suspicious person walking up to the vehicle.


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#508 Skywalkre

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 1707 PM

The cop in this latest incident was off-duty so a body cam wouldn't have helped.


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#509 NickM

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 1709 PM

 

 

Footage will hopefully shed light. Remember, 48 hour rule on reporting being 100% inverted from reality. 

Yeah store video will make all the difference.  VIdeo tells the tale, again why Body Cameras should be required for ALL law enforcement in the US, not just the real cops, but the Feebs as well.  

 

 

And carcams pointing 4 directions away from the cruiser. With the recording drives locked in a heavy steel box in the trunk (given adequate heat sinking etc). 

 

Effort needs to be spent inhibiting bangers from killing solo LEOs. It'll also reduce the he said/she said nonsense going on. 

 

 

Bangers taking shots at Cops? I thought that sort of stuff leads to rather vigorous counteraction on the part of LEOs.?


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#510 Skywalkre

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 1015 AM

Paul Penzone, the new Sheriff of Maricopa County (he's the guy who defeated Arpaio), appears regularly on local talk radio.  He was asked to respond to how Phoenix PD is handling a recent controversy of their own.  One of the hosts asked about how he responds when officers question whether leadership has their back.  Here was his response:

 

I have been asked, "Sheriff, do you have our back?  How do we know you have our back?"

 

Listen, I will defend good actions.  I will hold accountable bad actions.  I don't know whether that falls into having your back but if you expect me to defend something that is unethical, unlawful, unprofessional... I'm not that guy.  I was hired and elected to hold people accountable so that we can rise to the highest level of law enforcement and professionalism and... we're not going to be perfect.  We're human.  But we sure as heck should strive to be exceptional and that's who we're going to be.

 

His quote seems spot on with how things should be.

 

The problem seems to be many cops out there don't agree with him (he prefaced his comment with some of his own people probably wouldn't like his answer :blink: ).  We saw that recently with the story of how 95% of respondents in the Mesa PD said they had no confidence in their Chief after he called out unacceptable behavior by officers.  That same union vowed to try and get the officer rehired that was responsible for killing a man in that egregious incident in the very first post of this thread.  That's just local... there are countless examples across the country.

 

The bit about 'being human' is also one that touches a nerve.  I've seen that used in so many aspects of life in recent years and it's simply BS.  Yes, we're all human.  Yes, some of us make mistakes.  But some of those mistakes are so terrible or impactful that there should be consequences to them.  There's nothing wrong in holding folks accountable for big fuck ups.  What is wrong is giving someone a pass because he's 'one of us' or because of the job he fills.


Edited by Skywalkre, 21 June 2019 - 1025 AM.

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#511 Murph

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 1458 PM

Paul Penzone, the new Sheriff of Maricopa County (he's the guy who defeated Arpaio), appears regularly on local talk radio.  He was asked to respond to how Phoenix PD is handling a recent controversy of their own.  One of the hosts asked about how he responds when officers question whether leadership has their back.  Here was his response:

 

I have been asked, "Sheriff, do you have our back?  How do we know you have our back?"

 

Listen, I will defend good actions.  I will hold accountable bad actions.  I don't know whether that falls into having your back but if you expect me to defend something that is unethical, unlawful, unprofessional... I'm not that guy.  I was hired and elected to hold people accountable so that we can rise to the highest level of law enforcement and professionalism and... we're not going to be perfect.  We're human.  But we sure as heck should strive to be exceptional and that's who we're going to be.

 

His quote seems spot on with how things should be.

 

The problem seems to be many cops out there don't agree with him (he prefaced his comment with some of his own people probably wouldn't like his answer :blink: ).  We saw that recently with the story of how 95% of respondents in the Mesa PD said they had no confidence in their Chief after he called out unacceptable behavior by officers.  That same union vowed to try and get the officer rehired that was responsible for killing a man in that egregious incident in the very first post of this thread.  That's just local... there are countless examples across the country.

 

The bit about 'being human' is also one that touches a nerve.  I've seen that used in so many aspects of life in recent years and it's simply BS.  Yes, we're all human.  Yes, some of us make mistakes.  But some of those mistakes are so terrible or impactful that there should be consequences to them.  There's nothing wrong in holding folks accountable for big fuck ups.  What is wrong is giving someone a pass because he's 'one of us' or because of the job he fills.

I don't disagree, but I want the Sheriff to be full throated in my defense if I am in the right, and the leftist mob is after me for a legal action.  Too many Chiefs and some Sheriffs throw their people to the wolves at the first hint of "controversy" or to appease the mob.


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#512 Murph

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 1801 PM

This weekend sucked.  Just sucked @ss.  I never get called out these days unless it is an OMG case.  Well, it sucks, with a two year old victim barely holding on.  Keep this child in your thoughts, he needs all the help he can get, and lets pray he makes it.
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#513 Skywalkre

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 1824 PM

SWAT team busts into home over unpaid gas bill (not making this shit up).  Kill a dog lying on the ground.  County is now paying out $750,000 to the dog's owner (because they lied about the dog charging them).  From what I can tell no disciplinary action taken against any cops (and in particular the one responsible for all of this sounds like he should have been fired).

 

 

Messenger: St. Louis County settles for $750,000 in case where SWAT team shot family dog

 

U.S. District Court Judge Patricia Cohen asked the jury of eight women and one man the question that was likely on their minds:

“Was it a complete waste of time?”

 

For the past week the jury had been listening to arguments in a civil rights case that pitted Angela Zorich of south St. Louis County against the St. Louis County Police Department and four of its officers. In April 2014, the county’s tactical operations unit busted down Zorich’s door at the request of problem properties unit Officer Robert Rinck because their gas had been turned off. In the raid, an officer shot and killed the family’s 4-year-old pit bull, Kiya.

 

Cohen answered her own question.

 

“No,” she said, “it wasn’t.”

 

The full week of trial was necessary, she said, to get the parties to where they ended up Monday morning, when St. Louis County offered to settle the case for $750,000 just before closing arguments were to begin.

 

National police shooting expert Jim Crosby, who testified for Zorich at the trial, said it is one of the largest settlements or awards in a dog-shooting case in the country.

 

At the trial, he testified that contrary to the police narrative that the dog had been charging at officers, it was more likely shot in its side or rear, at or near the spot where Kiya sat when officers broke into the house to execute a search warrant so they could examine the condition of the house. Zorich’s attorneys produced a photo — taken by animal control officers — late in the trial that they say had not been provided by the county when all photos of the scene had been requested.

 

Rinck declined to comment after the settlement was announced in court.

 

But county attorney Priscilla Gunn said that the case had already had an effect on changing police policies.

 

“We’re glad it’s behind us,” she said of the lawsuit. “We’ve made changes since this incident.”

 

That the settlement was made public was unusual in recent cases involving St. Louis County police, where confidentiality clauses are common. The change is a direct result of St. Louis County Executive Sam Page’s direction to the county counselor’s office that more transparency is necessary in the operation of county government in order to regain the public’s trust.

 

Gunn declined to say what specific changes the police department had made, but said: “There is more risk assessment that we do now,” when the tactical unit is involved.

 

Attorney Jerry Dobson, who brought the lawsuit on behalf of Zorich, along with Nicole Matlock and Dan Kolde, said he hopes the county learns from what happened to Zorich. He believes the county needs to examine a policy that would use fully armored SWAT units to execute search warrants on what amounts to a crime of poverty.

 

“I think the settlement says they need to take a serious look at this practice, and hopefully change the policies to better protect the rights of its residents,” Dobson said.

 

In the trial, the Zorich family — particularly her three grown sons — were painted by the county as troublesome and violent, and anti-cop, in an attempt to justify the intensity of the armed raid.

 

But the evidence fell short.

 

At one point in the trial, Cohen had to interrupt Gunn repeatedly to remind her that arrests and convictions are completely different things.

 

“These are arrests,” Cohen said in front of the jury. “They are not convictions. There may not even be charges.”

 

The money won’t bring Kiya back, Zorich said outside the courtroom, but she’s ready to move on.

 

“They know what they did wrong,” she said of the county police. “That money sends a message. The trial showed exactly what happened.”

For Cosby, a retired police lieutenant from Jacksonville, Florida, who is considered one of the nation’s top experts on the issue of animal aggression and police shootings, the Zorich settlement is “a very big deal across the country.”

 

It comes on the heels of a similar case in Colorado that settled for $260,000 two years ago, and a 2012 Maryland case in which a jury awarded more than $600,000 to a family whose dog was shot by police. That award was later cut to $200,000.

 

“The settlement shows that the value of pets is being recognized,” Crosby says. “They are more than property. They are part of our family and need to be treated as such.”

 

As a longtime police officer, Crosby says he’s generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt when they are accused of making mistakes, but the prevalence of such dog-shooting cases show that more diligence is needed.

 

“When police officers are wrong, we have to be held accountable,” Crosby says. “St. Louis County has to recognize they made a mistake, has to address the problem, and has to make sure it doesn’t happen again.”

 

https://www.stltoday...04764aab6d.html

 

Surprisingly little out there on this story.  Basically a cop responsible for inspecting possible abandoned homes exaggerates, if not outright lies, about the possible danger of this woman's sons.  That supposedly justifies sending in SWAT over an unpaid gas bill.  Cops charge in, kill dog lying on the ground that either simply raised it's head at the noise or possibly started to run away, lie about this after the fact, and now the county owes this woman $750,000.

 

I couldn't find any info that the cop who started this whole chain ever faced any disciplinary action.  Shock, surprise...


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#514 rmgill

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 0146 AM

Cops have routinely been killing people's dogs. Some have even been dogs that were locked in a pen. One of the running jokes about violating the NFA is that even if you're not wrong about what you did, ie the ATF is wrong because you DID file the paperwork, they just lost it, they'll still bust in, kill your dog, traumatize your family and that's if you're lucky.

Meanwhile if a perp kills a police dog, the penalty is as if they had killed a cop. 

Sort of a double standard there I think. 


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#515 Murph

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 0752 AM

I have shot two dogs in my career, both were attacking me: A Mastiff which had been aggression trained and had attacked the guys neighbor, and a pit bull on a felony warrant with the US Marshals and DEA.  I have been bitten several times, all by lawn piranhas (Jack Russell terrier, three chihuahuas, and a small mutt whose mother was more enthusiastic than discriminating).  

 

That being said cops do shoot dogs too frequently, and there is an at times double standard.  We had to take a class on NOT shooting dogs, and how to handle vicious dogs.


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#516 Murph

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 0919 AM

A snowflake in Tempe Arizona demanded five police officers leave a Starbucks because they made him feel unsafe.  So some gamma male (or for this guy maybe an Omega male) was wetting his pants.  And the leftists at Starbucks made the cops leave.  I have left Starbucks and their crappy coffee a long time ago for a local place that makes wonderful coffee.  https://townhall.com...unsafe-n2549599  

 

https://twitter.com/...unsafe-n2549599


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#517 DB

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 0932 AM

There is something about every problem being a nail when the only tool you have is a hammer.

 

Sadly, it seems that too often the best tool - a working brain - seems to have been left at home by the officers involved in many of these events.


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#518 JWB

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 1958 PM

Former sheriff’s deputy arrested on accusations of planting drugs to set up bad busts

 

The Jackson County Sheriff’s Office asked FDLE to look into Wester. FDLE says it found Wester would initiate a traffic stop, put drugs in the car, then arrest the people in the car.

“Wester circumvented JCSO’s body camera policy and tailored his records to conceal his criminal activity,” the FDLE said.

 

https://www.miamiher...e232492962.html


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#519 Murph

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 2014 PM

[quote name="JWB" post="1436928" timestamp="1562893094"]Former sheriff’s deputy arrested on accusations of planting drugs to set up bad busts
[quote]
 
The Jackson County Sheriff’s Office asked FDLE to look into Wester. FDLE says it found Wester would initiate a traffic stop, put drugs in the car, then arrest the people in the car.
“Wester circumvented JCSO’s body camera policy and tailored his records to conceal his criminal activity,” the FDLE said.
[/quote]
https://www.miamiher...e232492962.html[/quote

He needs lots of prison time.]
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#520 Murph

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Posted 14 July 2019 - 1145 AM

PSA: If you throw Molotov cocktails, you might get shot...dead.   So don't do it: https://hotair.com/a...probably-shoot/

 

 

This should really go without saying, but before anyone starts unloading on the cops we should deal with a dose of reality. I don’t care if you are a nutjob with a right-wing political agenda, a nutjob with a left-wing ax to grind, or just a random nutjob with some screws loose. If you show up at a government building with a rifle and incendiary devices and begin torching the place, the cops are going to be there quickly. And if you don’t comply with their instructions, they will shoot you. This guy had burned up at least one car, set fire to a couple of buildings and was attempting to detonate a large propane tank. What did he expect was going to happen?

If you didn’t hear about this, it probably shouldn’t be too surprising. Yes, there are a couple of headlines in the major newspapers and I did see a few segments on CNN covering it. But at least from the pieces I watched, they were almost entirely who, what, where, when stories, absent any great degree of analysis and discussion. I wonder why that is?

Every time some whacko with a MAGA hat so much as takes a swing at someone, we’re treated to hours of endless analysis about how Donald Trump’s violent rhetoric is inspiring people to do harm. But now, after elected Democratic officials, including some presidential candidates, have spent weeks and months vilifying Immigration and Customs Enforcement, accusing them of running concentration camps and demanding that they be shunned by polite society, I take it we’re forbidden from wondering if all of that rhetoric had anything to do with this jackwagon trying to blow up an ICE detention center.

Seriously, folks. Aside from a couple of new polls dropping, a brief blackout in New York City, and some flooding down south, there wasn’t all that much news breaking this morning. And yet I don’t think CNN has spent more than ten minutes total on this attack since I turned it on at six o’clock this morning. Where’s all the deep, penetrating analysis?


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