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When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible


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#481 Skywalkre

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 2246 PM

 

Why? 
 
We already have one of the highest incarceration rates in all the world (and far more than other first world nations).


Why?

11217607.0002.206-00000002.jpg
 

 

Ok, so what's the plan?  It's not like we're not trying to put murderers behind bars.  Not all of them have violent criminal records and some no criminal past at all.

 

 

Why do we really need to be throwing more folks in prison?  As someone mentioned several posts back our prisons are not meant to rehabilitate.  If anything they're networking/training ground for criminals.  I've heard arguments that if anything we need to look at who we're sending into prison, where, and for how long and then send less folks there.  We could possibly cut costs with no increase in crime and prevent this networking/training/indoctrination by keeping some folks out (some argue we could lower crime with this approach).  Unfortunately far too many Americans have a knee jerk reaction of 'hurr durr soft on crime' when anything like that gets mentioned.


An amusing theory, but that's the kind of amusing theory from academics that led to the big bounce in violent crime rates in the 1960s. 

 

https://quod.lib.umi...n;view=fulltext

 

In the United States from 1962 to 1979, the likelihood that a crime would lead to an arrest dropped from 0.32 to 0.18, the likelihood that an arrest would lead to imprisonment dropped from 0.32 to 0.14, and the likelihood that a crime would lead to imprisonment fell from 0.10 to 0.02, a factor of five.[10]

 

By the time a thug has first been sentenced as an adult he has already been exposed to a wide range of violent behavior. Its idiotic to think J. Random Offender won't encounter the 44th Street Ballers if he is sentenced to probation. He lives in the same neighborhood, went to the same schools, etc.

 

A couple points.

 

Over in the Trump thread there's been talk of prosecutor misconduct.  A lot of folks here on TN believe it.  Is that something that just happens at the Fed level when directed at Trump and his associates?  The argument I've seen for quite a while now is that similar misconduct (though it's viewed as being 'tough on crime') happens every day at the lowest levels.  In order to more likely nab a conviction the prosecutor throws a litany of charges against someone.  These are often pleaded down to something lesser (so few cases actually go to trial for various reasons which is another thread of its own).  Some of these charges that stick are violent crimes.  Depending on the jurisdiction some of these violent crimes really aren't.  As an example the inicident with Mesa PD from earlier in this thread... in some places resisting arrest is considered a violent crime and that individual could have been charged with it.  Instead he was lucky and the incident was caught on camera and all charges were dropped.

 

This leads to the next point.  Either from an overcrowded or mismanaged system you can have folks who are nonviolent thrown in with violent criminals (we're dealing with a developing story of that going on right here in AZ).  Throw on top of that the folks from the paragraph above who are labeled violent but really aren't.  You have a recipe where we've simply created a networking/recruitment situation for folks who now have fewer options when they get out for getting by.  Sure, there are some who are all around this even without prison.  Given the sheer amount we throw into prison compared to other countries we also have plenty who weren't.

 

I've also seen the argument labeled as more than simply going to jail or getting parole.  There's what goes on before and after these folks go to prison.  There are arguments we can spend less money now and end up with fewer in prison while maybe actually rehabilitating or preventing some of these folks from going down the wrong path.  From a fiscal Conservative perspective (I know, I know... that principle is dead in this country), if that's a possibility, why would we not look into it?

 

The underlying point that I've mentioned before about this is for our incarceration rate to make sense then America has to be some sort of Mad Max place in the world.  It's not.  By so many markers this is one of the best times to be alive.

 

 

On this subject, it is instructive to talk to cops and COs. And for that matter, psychologists who have worked in state mental hospitals.

 

We're in a thread titled "When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible" and many of us have opted in that we agree there's an issue with outlook ('us vs them') in the ranks of police across the country.  In such a scenario asking them some of these questions may not be the best idea.


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#482 rmgill

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 0048 AM

So what's Canada doing right that we're not?


Not sharing a border with Mexico. Why go to Canada when you're already 'there' by going to the US?

Edited by rmgill, 07 June 2019 - 0051 AM.

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#483 Skywalkre

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 0049 AM

 

So what's Canada doing right that we're not?


Not sharing a border with Mexico. Why go to Canada when you're already 'there' by going to the US?

 

 

The point was in regards to bringing in skilled immigrants.


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#484 rmgill

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 0051 AM

Alrguably importing so many people into one's country risks reducing assimilation to zero.

Also, Trump's policy of reducing unskilled immigration has what sort of reception with the left?

Edited by rmgill, 07 June 2019 - 0051 AM.

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#485 Paul G.

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 0552 AM


As for immigration, again, I'm not seeing why we need less.  Canada brings in more than we do per capita but apparently do it 'right' by focusing on getting higher educated immigrants (something Trump apparently has been pushing and I'm in full agreement with).  Even then there's nothing wrong with bringing folks all over the spectrum.  Immigrants able to fill jobs at all tiers are important and immigrants historically have a lot more impetus to start businesses than native-born.  As a whole they're a net boost to the economy (if you do it right).

From a certain perspective, we do NOT need to be bringing in so much that we depress wages substantially in ANY of our markets unless we're majorly hurting for that sort of talent. See Eric Weinstein's points on this issue. https://www.inetecon...mplete_INET.pdf
 
 
So what's Canada doing right that we're not?  As mentioned they bring in more immigrants per capita than we do and apparently a higher % of skilled ones.  Another aspect to consider is that many of these immigrants are leaving their home countries for good reason.  If they can't come to the US they'll go elsewhere.  Given all the economic benefits of immigration and the rising role of tech in everything economic it would seem worth it to grab as many of them as we can (it's possible short-term economic hits could be made up for down the road).
Canada has a rational immigration policy that is strict on enforcement, but lenient on a path to legality, and recognizes the value offered to the free market by immigrant labor.

We do the exact opposite. We halfassed enforce our laws because they are draconian when it comes to any semblance of a path to legality, we trap people in a illegal status, but don't go after citizens giving them jobs, but refuse to recognize the role they play in the labor market.

Edited by Paul G., 07 June 2019 - 0556 AM.

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#486 Paul G.

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 0603 AM

Alrguably importing so many people into one's country risks reducing assimilation to zero.

Also, Trump's policy of reducing unskilled immigration has what sort of reception with the left?


Acceptance and inclusion rather than resentment and ostracism go a long way to assimilation. You think immigrating isn't an anziety inducing life event? Assimilation goes both ways. Canada has a progressive policy that actively assists immigrants assimilating.
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#487 rmgill

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 1257 PM

The non enforcement of us Immigration Law, who was pushing that Paul?

Who is currently demanding that the Border and Customs agency be disbanded? Is that even reasonable?
 

Acceptance and inclusion rather than resentment and ostracism go a long way to assimilation. You think immigrating isn't an anziety inducing life event? Assimilation goes both ways. Canada has a progressive policy that actively assists immigrants assimilating.


Does it actually work though? Some Canadian voice say otherwise. Trudeau calling it a post national country would seem to disagree with you.


Edited by rmgill, 07 June 2019 - 1258 PM.

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#488 DB

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 1641 PM

The police officer who shot the unarmed Australian woman who had called for assistance is jailed for a fairly lengthy period.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...canada-48562834


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#489 Mr King

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 1712 PM

The police officer who shot the unarmed Australian woman who had called for assistance is jailed for a fairly lengthy period.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...canada-48562834

 

That story was memory holed so hard here because a black Muslim immigrant cop working for the caliphate of Minneapolis,murdering a white foreigner in cold blood did not do well for the narrative being whipped up into violent race riots at the time of racist white cops (and black cops but that part was kept quiet) killing aspiring musical artists. who were just good boys and gentle giants. 


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#490 Murph

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0856 AM

Remember to the left police are evil, unless and until the are crushing dissent against liberal orthodoxy, and defending liberal gated communities from the chaos the left created.
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#491 Mr King

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0906 AM

Remember to the left police are evil, unless and until the are crushing dissent against liberal orthodoxy, and defending liberal gated communities from the chaos the left created.

 

The same people who support black lives matters, and label all cops racists, and part of a institutionally racist system, want to take guns away from civilians, so only those same cops are armed......The thing that gets me from that BBC article is the part where the family of the victim says they are going to donate part of the settlement they are getting to fighting gun crime. Why? The system was working as intended here. Only the police officer was armed in this incident. 


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#492 Paul G.

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0922 AM

The non enforcement of us Immigration Law, who was pushing that Paul?

Who is currently demanding that the Border and Customs agency be disbanded? Is that even reasonable?
 

Acceptance and inclusion rather than resentment and ostracism go a long way to assimilation. You think immigrating isn't an anziety inducing life event? Assimilation goes both ways. Canada has a progressive policy that actively assists immigrants assimilating.

Does it actually work though? Some Canadian voice say otherwise. Trudeau calling it a post national country would seem to disagree with you.


Well lets see who benefits from cheap labor?

No it is not reasonable to kneejerk demand the dissolution of a FEDERAL agency that has overreached. No one HERE would dane to do that 🙄. Nor is it reasonable to continue with our irrational immigration laws.

It is reasonable to debate the effectiveness of Canadian immigration policy, but there is no question if is more rational.
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#493 Murph

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0943 AM

 

Remember to the left police are evil, unless and until the are crushing dissent against liberal orthodoxy, and defending liberal gated communities from the chaos the left created.

 

The same people who support black lives matters, and label all cops racists, and part of a institutionally racist system, want to take guns away from civilians, so only those same cops are armed......The thing that gets me from that BBC article is the part where the family of the victim says they are going to donate part of the settlement they are getting to fighting gun crime. Why? The system was working as intended here. Only the police officer was armed in this incident. 

 

True, I sat through a fascinating class yesterday as part of my required continuing education for law enforcement.  I found out that other than Texas and California most states do not require continuing education for peace officers!  I am tired of being the enemy of the nutjobs on the left.  I was having lunch with our Texas Ranger Thursday as we were interviewing witnesses (follow up on a sensitive case, requested by the State AG), and as we were leaving the resteraunt a citizen physically took the check from my hand, and told us" "Thank you for what you do".  I am personally uncomfortable with this, but there was no graceful way to decline.  I profusely thanked him, and instead left the cost of my meal as a tip for the waitress (the Ranger did the same).  In case anyone is in San Antonio, make sure you eat at Tommy's Mexican Restraunt, the food is awesome, and reasonably priced.  There are six in town.


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#494 Ivanhoe

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 1055 AM

Somehow I don't expect my black friends to be posting this up on FB;

 

https://www.dailymai...motivation.html

 

 

A black television anchorwoman has been allowed back to work despite her arrest for drunk driving, as bodycam footage obtained exclusively by DailyMail.com shows her mocking officers and accusing them of arresting her because of her race. 

 

Farron Salley, morning and weekend anchor at West Palm Beach's Channel 25 in Florida, was welcomed back after a two-month leave after her arrest on December 15, 2018. 

 

The 28-year-old wrote a statement apologizing for her behavior towards the Palm Beach Gardens Police officers but maintained her innocence.

 

But hour-long bodycam footage shows Salley slurring her speech and attempting to provoke white officers with accusations of racism, seemingly to turn the traffic stop into a racial incident.

 

Still, the Palm Beach County State Attorney said there was only enough evidence to arrest Salley - not enough to convict her.


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#495 rmgill

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 1514 PM

Despite repeated examples of such behavior where lunatic Leftist make up a story to pillory police, folks on the left will continue to cry racism as part of their ongoing war on anyone not like them. 


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#496 Murph

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 1905 PM

Despite repeated examples of such behavior where lunatic Leftist make up a story to pillory police, folks on the left will continue to cry racism as part of their ongoing war on anyone not like them. 

Very True, since calling some one a racist is one of the smears that cannot be defended against by those who are unjustly accused.


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#497 rmgill

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 2012 PM

It's the wholesale embracing of Kafka-esque tactics that gets me. 


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#498 Murph

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 0519 AM

It's the wholesale embracing of Kafka-esque tactics that gets me. 

So true.  The left will do anything to win, and the David French/William Krystol types will do anything to let them.  French regularly bashes, maligns, and spreads the cop hate in his columns.  If you read him, you think that we are all psychotic, gun toting, crazed killers of any minority we can get away with at any time.  


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#499 Skywalkre

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 1543 PM

 

MESA, Ariz. (FOX 10) -- Mesa Police Chief Ramon Batista has responded to the results of a vote of no confidence against him.

 

In a statement released Wednesday, the Mesa Fraternal Order of Police said of the 564 police department employees who responded to the vote, 95% of them said they had no confidence in Chief Batista, with only 23 employees saying they had confidence in the chief.

 

"He is no longer welcome in the Mesa Police Department. He is no longer welcome in our home and we'd like him to leave," said Nate Gafvert, President with the Mesa Police Association.

 

“Morale has never been worse at the Mesa Police Department,” said Will Biascoechea, President of Mesa Fraternal Order of Police, in the statement. “Through his ineffective leadership and intimidation of police officers, Chief Batista has created a toxic environment that puts both police officers and citizens in danger."

http://www.fox10phoe...confidence-vote

 

One big reason cited for this lopsided vote was the Chief's response to the incident highlighted back in post #286.  That's when four officers beat on a guy who made no threatening move toward them.  About half of the police and civilian employees in Mesa PD actually voted and of those 95% said they were unhappy with the Chief calling the behavior of police in that incident unacceptable.  (Same PD, btw, responsible for the reprehensible incident in the first post of this thread.)

 

Sounds like that whole department needs to be fired en masse...  :glare:


Edited by Skywalkre, 12 June 2019 - 1558 PM.

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#500 Skywalkre

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 2103 PM

This one is real sketchy so far.

 

Initial story is there's a shooting inside a Costco somewhere in CA with one dead.  Ok, probably some gang bangers getting into a scuffle.  Whatevs. 

 

Story then evolves into the one with the gun is off duty LAPD with the victim being a mentally handicapped individual who a relative claims was nonverbal and harmless... so how was there an argument?  Media doing their homework have found facebook posts from victim that make him sound... normal.  Is he nonverbal but fine every other way?  'Mentally handicapped' is such a massive spectrum.  Was he autistic?  Brain damaged?  Genetic condition? 

 

Story continues to evolve to latest below:

 

 

A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation told The Times that the officer was holding his 1-year-old while standing in line for a food sample at the store Friday night when he got into an argument with another man that quickly became physical. The source said the 32-year-old man, identified as Kenneth French, escalated the conflict to blows and knocked the officer to the ground.

 

The officer did not know of the man’s disability at the time, according to the source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

 

Authorities said the assault, which was captured on Costco security cameras, was unprovoked and led the officer to fire his weapon, killing French and wounding two of French’s family members, whom a relative identified as French’s parents.

 

The department has not publicly named the officer. Authorities did not arrest him, based on information provided to police by witnesses. The Riverside County district attorney will ultimately decide whether the officer will face charges.

 

Experts say it’s fairly common for officers to carry their firearms in public while off-duty. Off-duty police, like private citizens with firearm permits in California, are legally allowed to fire their weapon in self-defense in the event of an imminent attack and if there is no ability to retreat from the situation, said Jody Armour, a law professor at USC.

 

“The real question will be whether a reasonable person in the situation of the shooter would have believed he was under attack, threatened with death or serious bodily injury,” he said. “The shooter has to feel like they’re about to be attacked and there was no less drastic alternative.”

 

The fact that the officer’s child was in his arms at the time and that the people injured were not armed will be major factors in determining whether the level of force was justified, said Ed Obayashi, a Plumas County sheriff’s deputy and use-of-force advisor to the California Assn. of Police Training Officers.

https://www.latimes....0617-story.html

 

So apparently Costco food samples are so amazeballs they're worth shooting someone over.

 

In all seriousness the other two victims were the deceased's parents who are apparently 50+ and still in the ICU.  Depending on the victim's handicap I can easily see them doing nothing more than probably getting involved to try to explain/deescalate the situation to the cop.

 

I'm curious if we'll ever see this security cam footage and if we do if it's in anything better than 240p from 100m away.

 

Really curious how involved this altercation was before the officer was shoved to the ground.  Everything I've ever heard or read about carrying was no matter the situation you always back down and step away, even if a cop (obviously, this is if you're off duty), for this very reason highlighted in the story.


Edited by Skywalkre, 17 June 2019 - 2104 PM.

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