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#41 CT96

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 0839 AM

I'd say that Ubuntu is quite user friendly. I haven't fiddled with mint so much yet but it seems quite user friendly too. One of the main reasons I don't run linux as my default OS is that I use my computer pretty much for gaming...

 

/R

Ubuntu is fairly user friendly for computer people. I've used it quite a bit at work, and never considered it viable for non-computer users. Mint is the first one I've dealt with that I could tell a smart, non-computer person to just install it. Sure, they're going to have to learn quite a bit, but so much more seems to work "out of the box" without the fiddling I've had to do so often with Ubuntu or Fedora (to say nothing of the more exotics like Gentoo, or Slackware).


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#42 Ivanhoe

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 1141 AM

Oh, I know. The other issue is that most people are used to the quirks of Windows, not that the Mint quirks are any worse than the Windows quirks, they're just different, and "new".

 

Since I am finding myself providing unofficial, unpaid desktop support (again), I am reminded of the hard realities of the average end user. In my workplace, we have a lot of employees whose basic PC skill set is extremely limited, by choice. They essentially have chosen to not learn any more than what they knew when they hired in. The Windows 7 to Windows 10 transition did not involve cannibalism or suicides, thankfully; I had my concerns. 
 
With BYOD, VDI, and cloud being inevitable, or so it appears, things may get to the point where the corporate desktop is simply a Linux zero client which autoruns a VPN client and Chrome.
 

(new is a relative term. Having used linux in some form since before Windows 95 came out, I have seen quirks grow and shrink with each. Mint is the first that really seems to "get" it for the average user. I think.).


The things that make Mint special, IMHO, are that:
- the defaults in the installer and desktop environment are novice-friendly;
- the documentation and user community are novice-friendly;
- the scale of the thing is such that you don't have to search through 400,000 threads to find a discussion on audio driver issues.
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#43 Rickard N

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 1159 AM

 

I'd say that Ubuntu is quite user friendly. I haven't fiddled with mint so much yet but it seems quite user friendly too. One of the main reasons I don't run linux as my default OS is that I use my computer pretty much for gaming...

 

/R

Ubuntu is fairly user friendly for computer people. I've used it quite a bit at work, and never considered it viable for non-computer users. Mint is the first one I've dealt with that I could tell a smart, non-computer person to just install it. Sure, they're going to have to learn quite a bit, but so much more seems to work "out of the box" without the fiddling I've had to do so often with Ubuntu or Fedora (to say nothing of the more exotics like Gentoo, or Slackware).

 

What parts of mint do you feel are more user friendly than ubuntu? It's been a while since I ran an ubuntu but me memory is pretty much plug and play. I think I had to fiddle more with mint to be honest.

 

/R


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#44 Murph

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 1346 PM

I was banned from a LInux board many years ago for daring to propose that Linux should be "easy" for the average user, and should be easier to install and use for the average guy.   I was pretty much told that Linux was only for the elite, and the hoi polloi were not wanted.  The average Windows user was a luser and worthy only of scorn and derision.  If you could not hack, code, and write scripts, knew your way around EMACS of VIM, and could "roll your own" using Slackware, or Debian, you were a Luser and needed to be banned from the board.  I can't even remember the name of it now, but if folded a year or two later.

Oh, I know. The other issue is that most people are used to the quirks of Windows, not that the Mint quirks are any worse than the Windows quirks, they're just different, and "new".

 

(new is a relative term. Having used linux in some form since before Windows 95 came out, I have seen quirks grow and shrink with each. Mint is the first that really seems to "get" it for the average user. I think.).


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#45 Rickard N

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 1508 PM

 

I was banned from a LInux board many years ago for daring to propose that Linux should be "easy" for the average user, and should be easier to install and use for the average guy.   I was pretty much told that Linux was only for the elite, and the hoi polloi were not wanted.  The average Windows user was a luser and worthy only of scorn and derision.  If you could not hack, code, and write scripts, knew your way around EMACS of VIM, and could "roll your own" using Slackware, or Debian, you were a Luser and needed to be banned from the board.  I can't even remember the name of it now, but if folded a year or two later.

Oh, I know. The other issue is that most people are used to the quirks of Windows, not that the Mint quirks are any worse than the Windows quirks, they're just different, and "new".

 

(new is a relative term. Having used linux in some form since before Windows 95 came out, I have seen quirks grow and shrink with each. Mint is the first that really seems to "get" it for the average user. I think.).

 

I know, I asked a question about how to get AFS (file system that's distributed, sort of) some 20 years ago and got the answer "if you don't know how to do it, you shouldn't be using it"....


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#46 Murph

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 1147 AM

Same thing here, I got told to go back to windoze little luser, and leave real operating systems to the real elite men.  Breaking news... I found that JOE when invoked as Jstar looks really, really like Wordstar, and it runs under both Linux and Windows.  I might have to play with it some.  I just installed it on both systems so I can play with it. 

 

 

I was banned from a LInux board many years ago for daring to propose that Linux should be "easy" for the average user, and should be easier to install and use for the average guy.   I was pretty much told that Linux was only for the elite, and the hoi polloi were not wanted.  The average Windows user was a luser and worthy only of scorn and derision.  If you could not hack, code, and write scripts, knew your way around EMACS of VIM, and could "roll your own" using Slackware, or Debian, you were a Luser and needed to be banned from the board.  I can't even remember the name of it now, but if folded a year or two later.

Oh, I know. The other issue is that most people are used to the quirks of Windows, not that the Mint quirks are any worse than the Windows quirks, they're just different, and "new".
 
(new is a relative term. Having used linux in some form since before Windows 95 came out, I have seen quirks grow and shrink with each. Mint is the first that really seems to "get" it for the average user. I think.).

I know, I asked a question about how to get AFS (file system that's distributed, sort of) some 20 years ago and got the answer "if you don't know how to do it, you shouldn't be using it"....

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#47 Murph

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 1018 AM

I am loving Linux Mint.  Now I have decided to upgrade my laptop here at some point to an SSD.  I am torn between these two units:  Crucial MX300 525gb  http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820156151 and the Samsung 750 EVO 500 gb http://www.newegg.co...568&ignorebbr=1  I am not sure which one to buy, both seem to have good reviews, and good reputations.  I am also going to get one for the new computer I am going to get Lupe from Best Buy:  http://www.bestbuy.c...p?skuId=5238300  I will remove the HD, and add the SSD to make it faster.  Claimed battery life is over 9 hours.  My computer will run lovely linux Mint, whereas Lupe's will be a winders 10 machine.  Lupe is practically a luddite when it comes to technology, it took me six months to get her to even look at You Tube (now she is hooked), and how to run NetFlix.  *sigh*  Her laptop is practically Victorian Era, or perhaps Edwardian at best, it took several hours yesterday to get enough coal in the boiler to get it to do what I wanted it to do.     


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#48 Rickard N

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 0525 AM

I haven't tried the crucial but I have two Samsung Evos in my stationary and they have been working great (knock on wood)

 

/R


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#49 Murph

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 2040 PM

The more I suffer with MS "upgrades", the more I like Linux. 


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#50 TTK Ciar

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 2201 PM

The strain to not blurt out "OMG ARE YOU INSANE WHY NOT LINUX" in the "Windows 10 Speculation" thread has been giving me involuntary twitches. They've been swapping stories about Windows trying to auto-upgrade and eating itself instead.

But to each their own. Not everyone wants to learn Linux-based alternatives for all their Windows applications. Live and let live. Deep breaths. Walking away from keyboard now.
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#51 nabqrules

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 2205 PM

I would go with the samsung, the 750 is the one step down from the 850's (meaning 1% slower :D , it's more than that but from a HDD to SSD it doesn't matter) 

I personally had one bad Crucial (out of 3) and have run across several from customers in the shop. No issues with any of Samsung's offerings.


Edited by nabqrules, 03 October 2016 - 2207 PM.

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#52 Corinthian

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 2312 PM

I have two Samsung 850 Evos 1TB (one for each laptop) as the boot drive and so far it's ok. Sunday recommended it to me. Installation and migrating of software from HDD to SDD using the Samsung Magician or whatever it's called migration software was painless/flawless.


Edited by Corinthian, 03 October 2016 - 2320 PM.

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#53 Ivanhoe

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 2359 PM

The strain to not blurt out "OMG ARE YOU INSANE WHY NOT LINUX" in the "Windows 10 Speculation" thread has been giving me involuntary twitches. They've been swapping stories about Windows trying to auto-upgrade and eating itself instead.

But to each their own. Not everyone wants to learn Linux-based alternatives for all their Windows applications. Live and let live. Deep breaths. Walking away from keyboard now.

 

If Linux could replace Windows XX, it would have. I've been using Unix and Unix derivatives for far longer than Windows (late 1980s Convex supercomputer, Korn shell for interactive, csh rather than sh for scripting because shell scripting in Bourne is considered harmful), am Red Hat certified, so its not as if I'm afraid to learn something new*. But the reality is that workplace computers are all Win10 Pro by decree, all servers are 2008 R2 by decree. No exceptions, period. And sadly, my personal computing gear is an extension of my workplace. I run Hyper-V on my home desktop and home laptop, because I must run it at work. Yes, Hyper-V is still not ready for prime time. My employer has all the technical agility of a mushroom. They could go to WSUS and control the update process, I could dust off some seldom-used brain cells and show them how, but no.

 

Despite all the Microsoft bashing, I have to say that encrypting a system drive with Bitlocker makes LUKS+dmcrypt look pretty stupid by comparison.

 

* Hell, try doing software development on NOS2. Direct access and indirect access memory, moving storage to tape to get the temple priests off my back, those were the days...


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#54 Rickard N

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 0123 AM

I've worked for an organization that moved away from linux to windows for the reason that it is overall cheaper to run and easier to find people that can do it. The Linux mail server that was replaced hadn't been backed up for a year or two because it took too long to run the backup and when the persons that had set it up quit it was near impossible to find someone that could pick it up.

I have been running both linux and windows at home since 2000 at least and learned linux in -98 when I began studies and I have been working in both environments (I have been working with mac too btw).

There are pros and cons for all OS imho. One of the pros for windows is the gaming :)

 

/R


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#55 Ivanhoe

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 0530 AM

I've worked for an organization that moved away from linux to windows for the reason that it is overall cheaper to run and easier to find people that can do it. The Linux mail server that was replaced hadn't been backed up for a year or two because it took too long to run the backup and when the persons that had set it up quit it was near impossible to find someone that could pick it up.

 

True, it is easier to find Windows server admins than Linux server admins, particularly in some towns (here in the US, if you've got .mil in town, you've got Linux admins available). IME, here in the US the trend is for HR to unilaterally decide that position X has salary Y, regardless of notions of supply or demand. Since Linux admins tend to have higher wages, problem.

 

While Windows Server and AD is now pretty easy to manage, IMHO Exchange is a nightmare. To do it properly, you have to have an Exchange specialist. No different from sendmail on the Unix/Linux platform, but there are better options.

 

Getting back to desktop Windows v Linux, for me the killer app that Windows offers is Windows Explorer. I have an extremely extensive folder structure going back 20+ years. I can do everything I want to do (aside from backups) in one Windows Explorer window. I have yet to see a Linux file manager come close to Windows Explorer.


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#56 Murph

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 0642 AM

I use Windows explorer a lot, as I also use Task Manager to keep track of what is using resources on my system.  HTOP is ok, but not the same, and the Mint file explorer is ok, but not brilliant.  However, the fact that I can do an upgrade WITHOUT a re-boot...amazing. Compared to MS products, Linux is, not ugly, but just not as attractively polished.  I have developed a great fondness for Alpine email, since it removes the distractions for me. 


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#57 TTK Ciar

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 1211 PM

I like the shell (bash or tcsh) and the many powerful UNIXy file utilities to negotiate the 5.9 million files on my home workstation (and tens of millions of files on archive.org servers, when I worked there). When my employer has required me to interact with Windows, I've installed Cygwin to get the same capabilities. The only time I've seen the point of a GUI file manager was when I had to manage a lot of NFS mountpoints and net shares -- Nautilus managed the passwords and mountpoints so I didn't have to.

Over here on the left coast, Linux-using employers are easier to come by, as are Linux sysadmins. Windows becomes more prevalent as one moves further away from Seattle or San Francisco, though. Silly Valley companies seem to "get it", on the most part, that Linux-based infrastructure lets you do more with a fraction as many servers and a fraction of the TCO, even if individual employees cost more.

Out of curiosity, what does Task Manager track for you that top + iostat + vmstat + netstat + ntop + nmap don't? I don't have access to a Windows machine these days or I'd check it out myself. I've been meaning to write my own top-like utility, mostly to aggregate similar processes in the display, and am interested in stealing good ideas.

Edited by TTK Ciar, 04 October 2016 - 1215 PM.

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#58 Murph

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 2037 PM

I think it puts it all in one place, with pretty displays,   I like HTOP for the most part.


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#59 lucklucky

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 1423 PM

Visual Interface and intuitive - which includes respecting existing conventions - is the most important thing today.

 

That is the thing that made and still makes Linux loose to Windows. The people that developed  Linux does not grasp that common people have no problem taking a learning  on an OS but the way that learning is done is crucial.

That learning is what can be called holistic, it is the interaction with OS that is the learning.  Is is like a children learning a language. You don't send a children of 1 year to school.


Edited by lucklucky, 05 October 2016 - 1428 PM.

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#60 Rickard N

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 1550 PM

Powershell is to windows what bash or tcsh is to linux imho. I've started fiddling with it the last couple of years and it's pretty powerful. I have also a cygwin installed on all my machines, mostly because it is still the best ssh-terminal I've seen on a windows machine :)

 

/R


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