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More new camo uniforms?


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#41 Guest_JamesG123_*

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 2100 PM

Of course it would be the same if the uniforms were DCU, Multicam, or any thing that wasn't hi-contrast like BDUs or the like.

Most human vision and recognition is cued off movement. Camo only works when stationary. So most fancy patterns even if were something weird that told the eyes to ignore it, is wasted most of the time.
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#42 Archie Pellagio

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 0311 AM

James: Copy that. I found the claim odd and thought it was Sparky-esque BS because AFAIK thermal imagers can "see" because of the heat emanating from the subject, regardless of camo pattern. I'd understand if it were image intensifiers, but thermal and IR....


Your friend may have been confusing that they are 'soaked' (treated) in a chemical to reduce IR signature, but that has nothing to do with the pattern, it could be a clown suit. :)
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#43 thekirk

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 0456 AM

Your friend may have been confusing that they are 'soaked' (treated) in a chemical to reduce IR signature, but that has nothing to do with the pattern, it could be a clown suit. :)



The reason they do the IR additive (which is to the actual dyestuff used in printing the pattern) has zipola to do with thermal imaging. The problem is that when viewed through an IR or passive night vision device, most fabric dyes stand out like a massive glowing ball of reflected light, which really stands out against the muted natural background colors of nature. The anti-IR dyes used actually do allow the patterns to be useful during the night, when viewed with active or passive NVDs. Thermal imagers, not relying on light wavelengths, do not "see" the pattern at all--just the heat energy of the target. If you want to camouflage against a thermal imager, you need to break up the heat signature with insulation layers and other things. Nothing you do with the anti-IR dyes is going to affect what's seen thru a thermal scope.

If you look at a uniform that isn't anti-IR treated, versus one that is, you'll really see the difference. We had a Brazilian Captain training with us back in the 1980s, and his uniform stood out like a proverbial sore thumb at night in the woods. BDUs? Not so much--the patterns were still there, and blended in about as well as they did in daylight. The Brazilian camo pattern was very effective during the day. At night, with NVGs? Horrible. He looked like a bright shiny blob in the NV scopes, and if you turned on the active IR lamps, it was ten thousand times worse. Blinding, even.

Also--If you take an anti-IR uniform and saturate it with starch, you effectively remove the benefit of the treatment. We ran some impromptu tests back in the day, and you almost had to wash the uniform twice in order to get all the starch out of it. There were also a bunch of UV brightener additives that many detergent manufacturers add to their formulas that have the same effect. There is a list of approved laundry soaps which don't have the UV brighteners in them that you're supposed to be using with the ACU, for what that little tid-bit is worth.
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#44 nigelfe

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 0543 AM

Pffft! That's the urban legend. Canada doesn't have satfeeds in their igloos.
Falken



A post on arrse from guys in the know is a far better source than you are sunshine.

Edited by nigelfe, 19 June 2009 - 0543 AM.

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#45 SCFalken

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 0705 AM

A post on arrse from guys in the know is a far better source than you are sunshine.


Humor 101: you fail.



Falken
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#46 shep854

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 0733 AM

I've seen NVG video of troops in BDUs, and the black portions really stood out. That said, I am still trying to figure out where the "black does not exist in nature" remark comes from. I see LOTS of black outdoors.
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#47 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1011 AM

Field Grey?


In the eastern woodlands of North America, at least in hardwood forest, a medium or light gray will work very well for much of the year. Even then, though, if you move from a spot choked with small oaks and elms to an area choked with ferns, gray will really suck. Pine is an odd thing, since a lot of pine species have a reddish tinge to their bark. A camo pattern that will let you blend in with a pine trunk will stand out if you're walking down a trail and backgrounded by general forest and dirt.

Of course, every camo has its area of excellence, for example Suburban Drab;

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#48 T19

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1023 AM

A post on arrse from guys in the know is a far better source than you are sunshine.


nigelfe your ignorance is showing again...

Arrse is a British Army forum.

I was active Canadian Army during all the testing. We were given a video show on the new uniforms, the history of how it was developed by Defense Research, what was the process behind developing the CAMPAD Green that most of us use, and it was that process that was used to develop our Tan uniform presently used in the Sandbox BTW the develpment of that pattern was part of the reason we wore green when first deployed.

Until last year, I was working with one of the Defense Research Scientists that worked on the process... she was very proud of the work she did.

So sunshine, I stated my background.... whats your claim to fame other than some name and rumours on a foriegn military forum??


BTW Falken
And yes the igloos do have Satfeeds... its cable thats a bitch when the ice flows move :D

#49 George Newbill

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1109 AM

The Cadpat is the original Pixelated pattern from which all others are derived.

The Multicam pattern is overall pretty light compared to other patterns but the average is about the same as medium green which is known from USAF, US Army and Canadian tests to be pretty good across all situations.

I got a Cadpat top too and I'll see how that works tomorrow as well as the Multicam.

By the way spots work very well if you are stationary (sniper) but suck if you move, horizontal stripes like those on the French "tiger stripe" work fairly well even if you are in motion.
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#50 Paul G.

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1114 AM

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#51 Phil

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1336 PM

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If you look carefully at the second photo, you can just make out an American soldier
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#52 Lampshade111

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1443 PM

In the areas which are pretty much all desert, why not just issue the three-color DCU?

Edited by Lampshade111, 19 June 2009 - 1444 PM.

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#53 shep854

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 1517 PM

In the areas which are pretty much all desert, why not just issue the three-color DCU?


Doggone it, Lampshade, there you go again--asking a reasonable, sensible question! You're in the Army, remember?
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#54 FlyingCanOpener

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 2213 PM

We switched to the UDP (Universal Disruptive Pattern aka ACUPAT) to streamline our logistics, but it seems REALLY shortsighted to completely replace every uniform, piece of armor, and vest every 10 years when we invent the latest whizbang camo pattern. If everything is OD green, you only need to replace the camo smocks. Much cheaper in the long-term IMO.


Moisture-wicking = man-made materials = melts onto the skin when in contact with flames.
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#55 Nailcreek

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 2246 PM

While slightly off track, where can a civvie like me buy a set of Multicam via the net. Bowhunting is coming up in September, and I do wish to "look good in the woods" :D

I do have a set of the green MARPAT, and really like the pattern for the early hunt when there are still leaves on the trees.
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#56 Noble713

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 2347 PM

Moisture-wicking = man-made materials = melts onto the skin when in contact with flames.


Army to test new moisture-wicking, no-melt T-shirt

Re: Buying Multicam

Depends on the quality you want. High-quality uniforms are available as Tru-Spec TRUs from USCav.com. SKD tactical makes some nice ones too. Either will set you back ~$150+. Or you can buy from a number of Asian airsoft shops such as ebairsoft.com.Those are about $100, but if you are anything over 5'10"/150lbs. their tiny uniforms probably won't fit you.

Edited by Noble713, 19 June 2009 - 2354 PM.

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#57 nigelfe

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 0249 AM

nigelfe your ignorance is showing again...

Arrse is a British Army forum.

I was active Canadian Army during all the testing. We were given a video show on the new uniforms, the history of how it was developed by Defense Research, what was the process behind developing the CAMPAD Green that most of us use, and it was that process that was used to develop our Tan uniform presently used in the Sandbox BTW the develpment of that pattern was part of the reason we wore green when first deployed.

Until last year, I was working with one of the Defense Research Scientists that worked on the process... she was very proud of the work she did.

So sunshine, I stated my background.... whats your claim to fame other than some name and rumours on a foriegn military forum??
BTW Falken
And yes the igloos do have Satfeeds... its cable thats a bitch when the ice flows move :D


So there was a well conducted coverup to save a embarassment.
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#58 George Newbill

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 0742 AM

My Multicams are by "Propper" and are pretty good, they do MilSpec (Millitary Specification) Uniforms.

My CadPat top is a rip-off and rare as they (Canucks) like the USMC try to control their pattern, my daughter's MarPats came through Official channels, I traded a Marine some cool Army only TA-50 for them.

I have a lot of MarPat paintball gear, I made it myself out of fake MarPat material that I bought at a sewing store. For fun I made a bunch of body armor out of many different cloth patterns from mild to wild, let's see which the teens want to wear.

Edited by George Newbill, 20 June 2009 - 0751 AM.

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#59 Manic Moran

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 1214 PM

If you look carefully at the second photo, you can just make out an American soldier


Under all the gear.

I never did get those photographs. Just how often is a soldier going to be trying to conceal himself by standing up out in the open when there's all sorts of foilage around him?

They do have fire resitant ACU's (FRACU's), they are issued to deploying peoples. I just got mine last week with my 2nd RFI. I havnt worn them, just packed them and sent them on their way. We also got the IOTV to replace our IBA's. So far not a big fan of that either, cant carry anything on it and wayyy too much armor. Did 15 mile ruck march in it and my shoulders were killing me


Wore my FRACUs (Sounds like a curse from Battlestar Galactica) for the first time this week. They seem a little heavier and stiffer than regular ACUs. I have to say, I'm not sure what the actual improvement is of IOTV over IBA, but they're a bastard to put on in a hurry, and if you want to cool down, you can't just open them up without taking them off.

NTM
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#60 George Newbill

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 2154 PM

Did the paintball today, the Multicam worked okay at concealing me in the woods at a distance where I could see them but they could not see me, maybe 7 meters (yards),

The kids were in a mix of uniforms from BDUs & MarPats to solid medium green. The MarPat was effectively mottled brown and the solid green was just about as good.

ACUs would have been suicide.
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