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Gaza aid flotilla stopped by IDF, 10-16 dead reported


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#21 rmgill

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1023 AM

You are right, it doesn`t matter. In international waters states can only board ships flying their own flag. They can also board ships from countries they are at war with, but I don`t think the israelis are at war with Turkey :-)


Like the pirate ships everyone's been boarding? Or the Argentine ships that were stopped from heading towards the Falklands? Or the ships that many nations stop and inspect for various reasons?

Perhaps you think, with Hamas doing everything it can to attack Israel that they are NOT at war. OR might as well be at war? The exclusion zone is declared and known. There's no surprise. Ships headed to Gaza to deliver supplies MUST stop and be inspected. There's been too many incidents of ships bringing ordnance into Gaza for anyone to think otherwise.
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#22 Skorzeny

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1032 AM

Like the pirate ships everyone's been boarding? Or the Argentine ships that were stopped from heading towards the Falklands? Or the ships that many nations stop and inspect for various reasons?

Perhaps you think, with Hamas doing everything it can to attack Israel that they are NOT at war. OR might as well be at war? The exclusion zone is declared and known. There's no surprise. Ships headed to Gaza to deliver supplies MUST stop and be inspected. There's been too many incidents of ships bringing ordnance into Gaza for anyone to think otherwise.


Argentine was at war with GB, for pirates I think you need probable cause.

As for these ships, they where under Turkish flags, so it doesnt matter if Israel is at war with Hamas. You cannot enforce an exclusion zone farther out than the territorial waters. You can disagree, but they broke the law and is now facing the shitstorm.
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#23 Paul in Qatar

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1033 AM

Like the pirate ships everyone's been boarding? Or the Argentine ships that were stopped from heading towards the Falklands? Or the ships that many nations stop and inspect for various reasons?

Perhaps you think, with Hamas doing everything it can to attack Israel that they are NOT at war. OR might as well be at war? The exclusion zone is declared and known. There's no surprise. Ships headed to Gaza to deliver supplies MUST stop and be inspected. There's been too many incidents of ships bringing ordnance into Gaza for anyone to think otherwise.


All public ships are allowed to board and inspect any vessel that lacks national identity, or which is engaged in piracy or illegal broadcasting or the slave trade. Ships on the high seas are not subject to inspection by navies and need not submit to it. Even the US Coast Guard does not board drug runners until that Counsel of the nation of registry gives permission.

The Israeli action was illegal and an assault on the Turkish state.
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#24 rmgill

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1033 AM

Here's video of the Melee.

Peaceful my left foot. Any of you guys want to consider me peaceful while me and 20 other people beat the snot out of you with a pole and bars and what not? :glare:


I guess this is the typical measure of peace. Hamas, Hez'bala, et al can bombard Israel for months and it's "peace". But, lift a finger to defend themselves and Israel has broken the "peace". What is this? Newspeak or something?

Edited by rmgill, 31 May 2010 - 1040 AM.

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#25 Cyber_Ghost

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1043 AM

All public ships are allowed to board and inspect any vessel that lacks national identity, or which is engaged in piracy or illegal broadcasting or the slave trade. Ships on the high seas are not subject to inspection by navies and need not submit to it. Even the US Coast Guard does not board drug runners until that Counsel of the nation of registry gives permission.

The Israeli action was illegal and an assault on the Turkish state.

What about the US qurantine of Cuba during the missile crisis? Israel is in a de-facto state of war with Hamas, and has the rights to blockade it's ports.
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#26 Yama

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1043 AM

I will deter my judgement until more facts are known but really, it is somewhat disturbing how quick some people are jumping to conclusions again.

Edited by Yama, 31 May 2010 - 1043 AM.

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#27 Cyber_Ghost

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1056 AM

I will deter my judgement until more facts are known but really, it is somewhat disturbing how quick some people are jumping to conclusions again.


Well, lets see, it involves Israel and the use of force... it's not jumping to conclusions, for some people it's a Pavlovian reflex.
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#28 Paul in Qatar

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1103 AM

The 'Quarantine' of Cuba was diplomatic doublespeak. The US announced its intention to board Soviet ships, but cooler heads prevailed. Thank God we did not have to put our money where our mouths were.
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#29 Paul in Qatar

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1105 AM

What about the US qurantine of Cuba during the missile crisis? Israel is in a de-facto state of war with Hamas, and has the rights to blockade it's ports.


(Pardon me, I accidentally posted my reply downrange.)
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#30 Paul in Qatar

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1113 AM

Some rioting in Turkey. The Turkish PM says there was no contraband on the ships. Now the two governments are calling each other liars.
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#31 Cyber_Ghost

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1121 AM

There may well have been no contraband... but there were blunt weapons, knifes and sling-shots.
The main problem was the intelligence indicated that there will be light, mostly passive opposition, like there was on the other ships, but here the soldiers were caught by a mob intending to lynch them.
I know a number of people who trained for this scenario, they were instructed to first try to reason with the people on the ships and then if that doesn't help use paintballs (probably CS rounds). Guns were to be used as a last resort in case of a life threatening situation.
In my book, someone tries to stub or club me, he has the will and the means to kill me, I'll shoot him.
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#32 Paul in Qatar

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1127 AM

If I might politely point out, you and I are not highly-trained naval commandos. They used deadly force and embarrassed their government. They screwed up.
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#33 Cyber_Ghost

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1134 AM

If I might politely point out, you and I are not highly-trained naval commandos. They used deadly force and embarrassed their government. They screwed up.

There probably was a screw up, but not by the guys on the ship. IMHO, landing one by one on the ship led the soldiers to a situation where they can be picked one by one.
But you know, hindsight is always 20-20.
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#34 Paul in Qatar

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1140 AM

Perfectly true. One of the tricks of a special operation is world-class intelligence and planning. The Powers That Be sent those guys into a bad situation. Once there, I hold they messed up, but I am willing to change my mind as facts come to light.

All in all, the IDF failed at several levels.
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#35 Marek Tucan

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1141 AM

If I might politely point out, you and I are not highly-trained naval commandos. They used deadly force and embarrassed their government. They screwed up.


I guess if they had let themselves to be clubbed to death and/or taken hostage, it would be a bit more embarassing.
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#36 glenn239

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1141 AM

If I might politely point out, you and I are not highly-trained naval commandos. They used deadly force and embarrassed their government. They screwed up.


The boarding method looked retarded, so the fault was with whoever decided on the method and not with the troops sent in.

BTW – the conversation is focused on irrelevant details. The question is what the Arabs do next. Either there won’t be another flotilla or it will have a military escort from as many Arab countries as the Turks can muster support.
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#37 Rod

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1251 PM

Turkey has not really been an Israeli ally since the Erdogan government took over. They haven't really been a real US ally since refusing U.S. requests to use Turkey to invade Iraq. In fact given Turkey's recent tilt towards Islamism and trying to make nice to Iran and Syria, I wonder how long before they quit or are invited out of NATO.


Turkey IS an Israeli and US ally, and incidentally also a member of Nato. Thats why this is such a bloody mess. Wouldnt surprise me now if every tinpot dictator who dislikes the West will try boarding Western Ships to 'inspect' them for weapons, and they will all use the Israeli action as justification.


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#38 Olof Larsson

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1255 PM

You cannot enforce an exclusion zone farther out than the territorial waters. You can disagree, but they broke the law and is now facing the shitstorm.


Really?

In that case why did both Germany and Britain (and many other nations) board neutral ships in international waters
during both world wars, without said neutral nations (including the USA) making much fuzz about it?
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#39 Red Ant

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1301 PM

Illegal, schmillegal. This is just typical of an age where everyone goes to great lengths to follow the literal word of the law to a T while doing his best to circumvent its spirit. They knew exactly that Israel wasn't just going to sit by and watch.
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#40 Cyber_Ghost

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 1320 PM

Turkey has no interest in making amends with Israel. It appears that Erdogan has stated to Ehud Barak that whenever there's a choice between PLO and Hamas he'll side with Hamas as it's his "sister movement", so his intentions are clear. Turkey is steadily moving away from the Ataturk constitution towards becoming an Islamic state.
As a side note, William Gladstone had this to say about the Turks: "... Wherever they went a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force as opposed to government by law..." I'd be more then glad to see us respond to Turkey by building a monument to the Armenian holocaust and support Kurdish independence.
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