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The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking


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#1 Max H

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 2041 PM

The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.
What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.
The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.
The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html?
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#2 Mikel2

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 2200 PM

Pretty scary what can be done with file cabinets and index cards... Imagine what could be done with today's technology.
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#3 chino

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 2340 PM

Sorry for going Off Topic, bur recently I saw a British "Holocaust Denial" guy speak on Youtube.

"The Holocaust Lie - David Irving"

I read separately on the internet that he is a neo-Nazi. Can we talk about such things on TN?
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#4 rmgill

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0228 AM

Of course we can talk about such things. Usually it involves how the ideas of holocaust denial are easily defenestrated and how their advocates in main probably also need to be defenestrated.

As it was pointed out by the Band of Brothers series, how could they [Germans] not have known what was going on under their very noses.
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#5 APF

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0316 AM

Link?

And, well, yes, he's of the holocaust denial ilk. IIRC correctly he started off as hobby historian who learned german and somehow got ensnared by the idea that the Nazi's didn't intend to kill the jews at all, but that it was rather a sort of "consequence" of the poor living standard in the "Reich" during WWII, sort of "well, many people were on the brink of starvation, and they were to poorest lot so they just didn't make it".
Problem is that he was so ensnared by his view - or couldn't stand being wrong - that he started to misquote and/or translate wrong german official documents on the basis that "he knows german language", which eventually destroyed what reputation he ever had.
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#6 Marek Tucan

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0337 AM

He also made a bg deal of Dresden death count and promotes the idea it was a war crime IIRC. AFAIR his death count (initially up to 250 000) was debunked some time ago already and his main source was proven to be a forgery.

As for archives, IIRC there is also strong suspicion he "disappeared" some documents during his archive visits.

Edited by Tuccy, 03 March 2013 - 0338 AM.

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#7 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0353 AM

Christ on a cross, why are people so bloody naive?

Why is this shocking? That man is such a savage to his fellow man? That weakness attracts violence?

What exactly is shocking? The only thing shocking to me is that people are such fools to believe such obvious bullshit, even for a moment. S/F....Ken M

Edited by EchoFiveMike, 03 March 2013 - 0456 AM.

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#8 APF

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0454 AM

As for archives, IIRC there is also strong suspicion he "disappeared" some documents during his archive visits.


Do you mean he destroyed evidence or that his discoveries of documents were displacements?
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#9 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0455 AM

Misfire, keyboard dying. S/F...Ken M

Edited by EchoFiveMike, 03 March 2013 - 0456 AM.

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#10 cbo

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 0630 AM


The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.
What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.
The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.
The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

http://www.nytimes.c...-shocking.html?


It depends on what they mean by "camp" and "ghetto" etc. If the number includes "Slave labour sites" and that included every place where non-voluntary labour was used, the number can hardly be surprising? The number of farms, factories, pits, roadwork sites etc. where slave or forced labout was utilized must be huge.
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#11 thekirk

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 1558 PM



The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking

THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe.
What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust.
The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945.
The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington.
“The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,” Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data.

http://www.nytimes.c...-shocking.html?


It depends on what they mean by "camp" and "ghetto" etc. If the number includes "Slave labour sites" and that included every place where non-voluntary labour was used, the number can hardly be surprising? The number of farms, factories, pits, roadwork sites etc. where slave or forced labout was utilized must be huge.


I think that's what's going on here: They've finally cataloged all the different sites involved, whether it was a "transitional" camp that was in operation for only a week or two, on up to the biggies like Auschwitz.

Technically, if you go back far enough along the chain, I suppose that you'd be able to connect every home and structure that a victim of the Holocaust lived in when it started as being a "site". Definitions are key, and I'll note that none of the journalists who are bringing us this story are bothering to include any of it.
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#12 Richard Lindquist

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 1751 PM

Even when some scholars have attempted to calculate the total number of dead in the Holocaust, they have been castigated as "Holocaust Deniers" if they document X-2 million instead of X million dead. If you mention the numbers of Polish, Russian, or Gypsy victims, you are also a "Denier". If you note that the Japanese caused the deaths directly or indirectly of several times the numbers of Chinese dead during the war, you are also a "Denier".
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#13 thekirk

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 1807 PM

Even when some scholars have attempted to calculate the total number of dead in the Holocaust, they have been castigated as "Holocaust Deniers" if they document X-2 million instead of X million dead. If you mention the numbers of Polish, Russian, or Gypsy victims, you are also a "Denier". If you note that the Japanese caused the deaths directly or indirectly of several times the numbers of Chinese dead during the war, you are also a "Denier".


It'd be nice to see some honest discussion on the issue, but the unfortunate fact is that the ideological blinders come down the minute someone even brings a discussion of the numbers up. Any way you do it, you're damned by all the parties with an interest in it who think they're on the other side.

I don't doubt that there are flaws in the scholarship surrounding this. Anyone going into it is almost inevitably going to do so with preconceived notions, and will also develop prejudices and favorites while doing the research. A truly objective view on the whole issue is probably impossible.

That said, I do think that a lot of the other victims of the Holocaust are not given the attention they deserve. And, of course, all the collateral damage done by Stalin is usually left in the shadows, and blamed on Hitler and his minions. How many of the Soviet dead are really the responsibility of the Nazis?

There's a recorded verbal history out there, somewhere, of a woman talking about her life in the Ukraine before the Revolution, during the Holodomor, and WWII. You listen to the litany of all the friends and family of hers who died at the hands of the Communists and Nazis, and you're just left awestruck at the magnitude of it all. If her recollections were accurate, the sheer scale of what went on in that region during the first half of the 20th century is mind-boggling. It was just hours of a old woman recounting matter-of-factly what she'd had to do to survive as a young woman, and how her family and friends had been eradicated from the earth. The stunning thing was, the Nazis weren't even the worst thing that happened to her: Think about that, for just a moment. She remembered the Nazis as a relatively minor problem, compared to the Communists.
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#14 T19

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 2040 PM

To me numbers are a distraction. X or x- y does it make a real difference. It was horrible. Millions disappeared. Jews gypies,poles,Russians the. Infirm
Are there other worse players? Hello yes. They all need to be exposed

#15 Wobbly Head

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 2122 PM

Sorry for going Off Topic, bur recently I saw a British "Holocaust Denial" guy speak on Youtube.

"The Holocaust Lie - David Irving"

I read separately on the internet that he is a neo-Nazi. Can we talk about such things on TN?


Sure you discount the documental evidence, the eyewitness testomony, the film and photographic evidence, and the physical evidence then you could say the holocaust never happend.

The other problem is that during a war or any kind of tormol most people just want to be left alone to survive they don't really care about what happens to some other people in someother part of their country they only care about their survival so the normal German might have suspected something was going on with the Jews but it wouldn't be on the top of their lists. Yes there was very bad things going on and it should be exposed as those who do learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Its a shame so much humans are so illitterate when it comes to histroy.
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#16 Loopycrank

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 2346 PM

There was a USAAF study done on the V-2 project after the war where they estimated that the V-2 project had consumed about the equivalent of (IIRC) 24,000 warplanes worth of resources. I wonder if any similar sort of estimates have been made concerning Germany's campaign of murdering their own people?

When I was in high school we had a (Jewish) survivor of one of the camps come and speak. One of the things he said at the end of his presentation that he wanted to make absolutely clear was that he didn't think that you could really understand the events if you just focused on the Jews. In his opinion, it was absolutely important to remember all the victims.
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#17 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 2359 PM

It seems like the big takeaway is that the horrible stuff happened in a lot more places than earlier research indicated, which renders even more bullsh*t the claims of contemporary Germans (and other Europeans) that they had no idea of what was going on. That's been debunked already from an anecdotal standpoint, but it's good to have more proof. The spin that it means that the Holocaust was even worse than we thought isn't very accurate because they don't seem to have revised the overall death toll.

I agree that if you get reductive enough you can start saying things like "how many Jews died just because there was an apocalyptic war going on," but it's pretty different than civilian deaths in E. European countries et al because killing Jews was intentional German policy vs. a side effect of the war. Far-left historians bring up the Indian Famine all the time as some kind of counterpoint, but it's obvious that killing lots of Indians wasn't intentional British policy.
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#18 RETAC21

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 0331 AM

Sorry for going Off Topic, bur recently I saw a British "Holocaust Denial" guy speak on Youtube.

"The Holocaust Lie - David Irving"

I read separately on the internet that he is a neo-Nazi. Can we talk about such things on TN?


Important to remember that David Irving is just an attention bitch - he´ll claim whatever in order to get the attention of the media, he switched horses after he got spanked with his claims regarding Captain Broome RN on PQ-17.
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#19 R011

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 0426 AM

Even when some scholars have attempted to calculate the total number of dead in the Holocaust, they have been castigated as "Holocaust Deniers" if they document X-2 million instead of X million dead. If you mention the numbers of Polish, Russian, or Gypsy victims, you are also a "Denier". If you note that the Japanese caused the deaths directly or indirectly of several times the numbers of Chinese dead during the war, you are also a "Denier".

That depends a lot on context. I haven't seen many folks getting upset at people bringing up the victims of other genocides and democides or quibbling about wether it's five million or over six, except when they try to use those numbers to criticize reaction to the Holocaust itself. These are the people who say things like the Jews control the media this is why we hear about the few million of them who died and not the bigger number of non-Jews - perferable of the speaker's favourite ethnicity.
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#20 RETAC21

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 0557 AM

Depends on the place, Poland saw 2 million deaths under the Nazis, they are remembered for sure, Soviet PoWs on the other hand were murdered by the Nazis and hidden under Stalin if not sent to Siberia for treason.
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