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#21 67th Tigers

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1546 PM

103 has been AD for ages. It only gave up its HVMs last year and when I was speaking to the PSAO of 211 Btry last year he said they were re-rolling to provide general support to the RA and they didn't know the ORBAT yet. He was inclined to think the regiment would support UAV ops. Only C Troop, 211 Btry operate Light Guns in the ceremonial role.


I was in 103 RA when they converted in 2001. 211 Bty is a 104 RA Bty, and they're still AD.

The problem with 104 is noone knows what to do with it, 101 have got the UAV gig (2 btys each supporting 32 and 39 in their various roles).

Essentially it boils down to:

HAC: support Special OPs of 4/73 Bty
100 RA: support 7, 29 and 40 (back in 2001 or so they supported 3 Div and wore the 3 Div badge)
101 RA: support 32, 39 and elm 5 (204 (Tyneside Scottish) is a UAV/ ASP Bty, 269 was the CoBRa/ ASP gig, 203 and 205 are still MLRS)
103 RA: support the DAG of 1st AD (3, 4 and 26)
104 RA: ? (supported 12 in Germany, but that has gone to 106, alonng with 12's aligned bty, 210 bty)
105 RA: support the DAG of 3rd MD (1 and 19, they might get the 40 gig with 19 Light Bde)
106 RA: support the cloud punchers (16 (265 Bty) and 47 (457 Bty), plus 12 (210 Bty) as mentioned above)

104 are completely superfluous, their 2 firing btys have no one to support any more, since 22 RA were disbanded back in 2004. A better use might be conversion to another Corps, rather than support a vestigial RA(V) Rgt.
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#22 WRW

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1554 PM

a TA RA bty converted to a AAC sqd recently ?

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#23 67th Tigers

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1555 PM

a TA RA bty converted to a AAC sqd recently ?

WRW


202 (Norfolk and Suffolk) Bty
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#24 Phil

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1614 PM

I was in 103 RA when they converted in 2001. 211 Bty is a 104 RA Bty, and they're still AD.

The problem with 104 is noone knows what to do with it, 101 have got the UAV gig (2 btys each supporting 32 and 39 in their various roles).

Essentially it boils down to:

HAC: support Special OPs of 4/73 Bty
100 RA: support 7, 29 and 40 (back in 2001 or so they supported 3 Div and wore the 3 Div badge)
101 RA: support 32, 39 and elm 5 (204 (Tyneside Scottish) is a UAV/ ASP Bty, 269 was the CoBRa/ ASP gig, 203 and 205 are still MLRS)
103 RA: support the DAG of 1st AD (3, 4 and 26)
104 RA: ? (supported 12 in Germany, but that has gone to 106, alonng with 12's aligned bty, 210 bty)
105 RA: support the DAG of 3rd MD (1 and 19, they might get the 40 gig with 19 Light Bde)
106 RA: support the cloud punchers (16 (265 Bty) and 47 (457 Bty), plus 12 (210 Bty) as mentioned above)

104 are completely superfluous, their 2 firing btys have no one to support any more, since 22 RA were disbanded back in 2004. A better use might be conversion to another Corps, rather than support a vestigial RA(V) Rgt.


Oops my mistake. Mixing up my 104s with my 103s again! Teach me to be so quick to post.
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#25 67th Tigers

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1617 PM

Oops my mistake. Mixing up my 104s with my 103s again! Teach me to be so quick to post.


No dramas, the question of what to do with 104 still stands. Shame because they're a good regiment.

ISTR under rebalancing some kind of "general reserve" regiment was the order of the day. Might not be a bad thing if they get a gig supplying IRs to Cyprus.
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#26 WRW

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1807 PM

are they going to be the only Sqd in 6 Rgt AAC
also what is happening with the Pioneers?

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#27 Chris Werb

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1822 PM

I104 are completely superfluous, their 2 firing btys have no one to support any more, since 22 RA were disbanded back in 2004. A better use might be conversion to another Corps, rather than support a vestigial RA(V) Rgt.


Sorry, but I thought one of 106s batteries had supported 22. 104 supporting 22 would make no sense as 22 had Rapier - it would make more sense for them to support one of the two regular HVM units (although these were already supported by 106). According to their website, The role of 104 Regiment is to provide Close Air Defence for NATO troops of the multi national ACE Rapid Reaction Corp, protecting them from attack by enemy aircraft.

The problem converting anyone to 105mm LG is that we gave/sold a load of those away in the 80s/90s as surplus and haven't bought anymore. There simply aren't enough to go round.
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#28 67th Tigers

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1852 PM

are they going to be the only Sqd in 6 Rgt AAC
also what is happening with the Pioneers?

WRW


Another Sqn is to be newly raised at Dishforth (as a specialist rather than independent unit?) so I hear.

102 Pnr Sqn was transferred to 165 Port and Maritime (the unit that annexed my beloved PB IoW R), 103 Pnr Sqn was disbanded. 100, 101 and 104 remain in 168 Pnr Rgt.
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#29 67th Tigers

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1903 PM

Sorry, but I thought one of 106s batteries had supported 22. 104 supporting 22 would make no sense as 22 had Rapier - it would make more sense for them to support one of the two regular HVM units (although these were already supported by 106). According to their website, The role of 104 Regiment is to provide Close Air Defence for NATO troops of the multi national ACE Rapid Reaction Corp, protecting them from attack by enemy aircraft.

The problem converting anyone to 105mm LG is that we gave/sold a load of those away in the 80s/90s as surplus and haven't bought anymore. There simply aren't enough to go round.


More due to county alignments. 22 RA was the Welsh regular Rgt of the RA, in the same way as 103 was raided by 3 (Liverpool and Manchester) and 12 (Lancashire and Cumbria) for IRs.

There are plenty of 105mm, but many are not upgraded to APS, in fact back in 2003 the TA were raided for APS equipped 105 LG. Some 20 odd are held by UOTCs...
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#30 bad-dice

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Posted 20 January 2007 - 1939 PM

4 Para be broken up


:angry: Oy!! Never ever ever ever ever say that again <_<
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#31 WRW

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 0436 AM

I cannot see MLRS being deployed in any great numbers at present so why not an MLRS Regt with a HQ and holding bty, a regular immediately deployable bty, a training bty and a number of TA btys

much the same with Rapier
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#32 Chris Werb

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 0838 AM

There are plenty of 105mm, but many are not upgraded to APS, in fact back in 2003 the TA were raided for APS equipped 105 LG. Some 20 odd are held by UOTCs...


How many guns does each regiment or battery actually have?
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#33 67th Tigers

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 0939 AM

How many guns does each regiment or battery actually have?


103 RA has 18 subs (gun detachments), but currently only hold 3-4 guns per bty each (and ISTR an AS-90 simulator ea). As part of whole fleet management, on camps they draw the remaining scaling from 14 RA at Larkhill (the guns are constantly rotating anyway). The same is true of 100 RA, and I'd imagine the same will be true of 105 RA. This is prettymuch true of the regular regiments too.

The thing is, that despite 150 pieces still being held, its not economic to ship guns to Canada, or the Middle East, so arriving units leave their guns at home and take over the guns there (the same for all major equipment), so there's a constant juggling act with all major equipments. The same is true of Armoured Regiments, they only hold a reduced number of Tanks (about 30) and upscale in theatre.

When GW2 kicked off, 7 Para RHA managed to receive it's full WFE upscale to 32 guns, but none of the Pax were TA Para Gunners, they went to 29 Cdo RA (which struggled to field it's full strength of 18 guns ISTR). GW2 kicked off for 7 with a full sustained "Fire Mission Regiment", as all 32 guns were targetted en mass at various Iraqi positions.

The net effect is that, say an Infantry Bn is going to Iraq with Warrior, one Battalion set of Warriors is needed in the Uk for training, another in Canada for BATUS TESEX, and another in Iraq to use.
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#34 67th Tigers

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 1040 AM

In that case, might be a good idea to convert them to horses, they seem to lead a charmed life. :)

What say all of you, what is the ideal size for the RAC in the British army? I cant see the UK deploying more than a Brigade, but logic dictates you want more than that to give you some ablity to sustain the deployed unit. What are we looking at, 4 Battalions of maybe 120 tanks total? At what point does it become unsustainable, and we get out of Armoured Warfare entirely?


Ideally each infantry battalion should be matched by a cav/armr sqn, preferably as heavy as possible IMHO (the old school 18 Tanks per Sqn).

Since we're reducing ourselves to 7 Warrior (exc LWC Bn) and 3 FV432 Bns, this would equate to 10 Sqns (2.5 4 Sqn Rgts), however some "weird stuff ™" is occuring, with Light Role Bns as part of Armour/ Mech Bdes. If we want to sutain 5 Armour/ Mech Bdes, we need 5 Armr Rgts (ideally of 3 Sqns each, which are simply given to the 3 Inf BGs, or you get some unwieldy combinations).

5 Armr Rgts is what we're getting under rebalancing, however, the 3 Rgts in Mech Bdes will convert a Sqn to "Medium" (i.e. CVR(T)) to support the Light Role Bn in the Brigade.

So the org will be:

Scots DG and QRH: 4x Challenger Sqns each (Germany)
RDG, KRH and 2RTR: 3x Challenger Sqns and a CVR(T) Sqn
9/12 L: 3x CVR(T) Sqns (Germany)
QDG: 3-4 CVR(T) Sqns (3 Div)
HCR, QRL, LD:: 3-4x CVR(T) Sqns (1 Armr Recce Bde)

We've pretty much carved each old Regiment down to a single Sqn. Last year only 1st DG, 2nd DG, 2nd D, 9th L and 12th L had a 2nd Sqn (plus the composite Troops in the HCMR). Guess who's next to get hit?

http://www.geocities...eo/UKCav2k6.htm
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#35 Phil

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 1103 AM

There are going to be 13 CVRT Sqns. 10 with 5 Formation Recce Regiments (2 ea plus another sqn for close surveillance with no CVRTs) and 3 in the 3 armoured regiment attached to Mech Bdes.

There'll also be 18 armoured sqns, 8 with 2 regiments in armoured bdes, 9 with 3 regiments in mech bdes and 1 with the LWC.
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#36 SCFalken

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 1348 PM

As long as the Scots Guards get their 2nd Battalion back, I'm happy.


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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 1406 PM

When GW2 kicked off, 7 Para RHA managed to receive it's full WFE upscale to 32 guns, but none of the Pax were TA Para Gunners, they went to 29 Cdo RA (which struggled to field it's full strength of 18 guns ISTR). GW2 kicked off for 7 with a full sustained "Fire Mission Regiment", as all 32 guns were targetted en mass at various Iraqi positions.


I still find it a bit scarey that we could barely field 50 guns out of a total holding of c. 150. Have they brought more up to the latest standard with APS now? Have you any idea where the 25 pack howitzers we've declared are? I'm assuming some of them must be targetry.
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#38 67th Tigers

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 1504 PM

I still find it a bit scarey that we could barely field 50 guns out of a total holding of c. 150. Have they brought more up to the latest standard with APS now? Have you any idea where the 25 pack howitzers we've declared are? I'm assuming some of them must be targetry.


More due to personnel. 7 Para RHA only has a requirement for 200 Para trained pax, and for the ability to jump in 6 guns (in effect 2 guns in each Bty), the rest may be "hats". In reality considerably more than that are Para trained, but when GW2 kicked off they drew reinforcements from 19 Highland RA (who only converted from 105 the year before), 100 RA(V) and 103 RA(V), the extra guns being draw from TA holdings (103 and the HAC Gun Troop had APS).

29 Cdo RA have a requirement for 100% Commando trained pax, and would not take any personnel without Commando, or at least Para training. This hamstrung their reinforcement. APS Guns were certainly available, my Bty still had 4 in the gun park (down from 6).

All guns dedicated for Operational use are APS now, leaving UOTC gun wings (2 each, say 30), 14 RA (holds about a dozen non-converted 105s for the first few weeks of Basic Field Guns cse), and various 105s used for saluting (about another dozen).

A full set of held in Canada for use on BATUS (24 guns?), 7, 29 and 40 have about 66, 100, 103 and 105 will hold about 40 between them.

That adds up to about 172, and apparently we have 207 (many of those in store).

We still used 25pdr as a saluting piece until very recently
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#39 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 0258 AM

Thanks for the info. Dumb question, but why do HAC have APS guns - I thought their war role isn't employing howitzers IIRC, so ceremonial spec guns would do. OTOH it surprises me that 14 would have non APS guns - unless their role includes firepower demos at Larkhill. I don't see the training value in having a completely different aiming system on the guns you train with. Does the UOTC number include CCFs? Some of the latter had L5s ten years ago. Otherwise it seems a bit on the high side (how many UOTCs are there?). The number of saluting guns also seems high. The only L118s I can think of in that role are at Edinburgh castle (1) Hillsborough NI (2?) and Cardiff (1?) - a few might still be at Gibraltar for ceremonial use and would count for CFE purposes. They may well have spares/trainers though. 207 still puts us well over CFE, even accounting for a set in Canada and - is another set held in the Falklands perhaps?
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#40 WRW

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 0326 AM

I dead somewhere that 21 SAS was due to be cut

Edited by WRW, 22 January 2007 - 0400 AM.

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