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#16561 seahawk

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Posted Today, 12:26 PM

How does the Trump supporters of this thread feel about the following? Do y'all feel it is a true statement? Do you feel it is not necessarily true but serves for good bargaining position for coming cost sharing negotiations? Or do you feel its not true but he said it it more as to reduce a singling out effect of criticism on European NATO countries? If any criticism was to be made, shouldn't it be at Japan's 1% GDP defense budget rather than cost sharing? Anything else about it, cost-sharing, or the US-Japan alliance in general?

Trump:

"I've asked Japan. I said to Prime Minister Abe, a friend of mine, Shinzo. I said, 'You have to help us out here. We're paying a lot of money. You're a wealthy nation. And we're, you know, paying for your military essentially," Trump said in London where he is visiting to attend a summit of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Spoiler
https://mainichi.jp/...00m/0na/003000c

He made that statment right around the time I made this post.
http://www.tank-net....17#entry1458932

 

Fully correct. Either those countries pay America for the protection offered, or America should withdraw. I hope the withdrawl from Germany starts 2020,


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#16562 Jeff

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Posted Today, 01:22 PM

 

No Rick, it really is not. It was a pending threat under George Bush, it was an emerging threat under Obama, and its a real threat today.

 

https://www.theguard...-christmas-gift

 

Burying ones head in the sand does not make these problems go away.

 

Not helped at all by the Clinton administration selling and gifting high level technology to the Communist regime.

 

 

Particularly tecnnology for staging missiles, only for peaceful purposes of course.


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#16563 Jeff

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Posted Today, 01:31 PM

The US perspective is really screwed up here. On the one hand they want tribute for defending Japan. On the other hand, they dont want Japan to defend itself, and to be wholly reliant on the US. They really have tried to do this, and the US Government has hobbled them at every given opportunity, because US manufacturers keep bleating about it.

 

 

 

Who doesn't want Japan to defend itself? We've been taking crap for begging, cajoling and pushing allies to spend more on their own defense. Trump just got NATO to promise (we'll see if they actually fulfill their pledges) for hundreds of billions in additional spending on their defense. I'd love to see Japan take a larger active role in countering China along with the other Pacific allies. Provided of course that it doesn't reawaken the Japanese expansionist dragon. How have we hobbled them from doing so? Of course we'd like to sell our defense products to them, that only makes sense. The UK and any other rational nation seeks to do the same.


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#16564 Jeff

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Posted Today, 01:34 PM

 

 

Again, the US is stationing troops in Japan for mutual benefit. If this point is not recognize or ignored, then leave Japan.

Of course it's recognized. How recognized is it on Japan's part? If the US needed JMSDF ships to perform operations in say the Gulf of Mexico for 30 years, would Japan be able to do it? Would Japan do it?Let me try an analogy.Ever have anyone give you a ride in their car on a regular basis? Do you chip in for fuel? The guy paying for the car, that you don't have, pays for the car, for the insurance, the maintenance, asking you to chip in for more gas money means what in Japanese cultural views? (I honestly don't know, what's the rule on something like this in Japanese etiquette?)The analogy that I think is more pervasive is that the US is Japan's Godzilla in reality. Initially we destroyed Japan, but then we became it's protector. Sometimes Godzilla needs a little something from the JSDF, sometimes a little more. How's Japan going to fare if Godzilla can't come when キングギドラ Kingu Gidora arrives?Just look at US Ballistic Missile defense work.US Space Based sensors. Launch detection of Missiles by the NORKSGBI (US defense mostly (Canada too))SM-3 (terminal defense - Japan is buying this how much US tax payer $$$ is invested in this system development?)PAC-3 (terminal defense - Same as SM-3)Sure, Japan is buying components out of the larger BMD tool box. How long has the US tax payer paid for that tool box? Are you going to get BMD systems out of the UK?

If I make counter points about Japanese military rocket and missile potential, it'll just get spun around and intepreted the wrong way I get the feeling of.

 

 

That's how debate takes place. No one is owed agreement to their opinions and the number and size of posts is no substitute for being right. Sometimes, there simply is not agreement in the end.


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#16565 lastdingo

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Posted Today, 02:59 PM

 

How does the Trump supporters of this thread feel about the following? Do y'all feel it is a true statement? Do you feel it is not necessarily true but serves for good bargaining position for coming cost sharing negotiations? Or do you feel its not true but he said it it more as to reduce a singling out effect of criticism on European NATO countries? If any criticism was to be made, shouldn't it be at Japan's 1% GDP defense budget rather than cost sharing? Anything else about it, cost-sharing, or the US-Japan alliance in general?

Trump:

"I've asked Japan. I said to Prime Minister Abe, a friend of mine, Shinzo. I said, 'You have to help us out here. We're paying a lot of money. You're a wealthy nation. And we're, you know, paying for your military essentially," Trump said in London where he is visiting to attend a summit of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Spoiler
https://mainichi.jp/...00m/0na/003000c

He made that statment right around the time I made this post.
http://www.tank-net....17#entry1458932

 

Fully correct. Either those countries pay America for the protection offered, or America should withdraw. I hope the withdrawl from Germany starts 2020,

 

Well, I hope so too, but you appear to be ignorant of how much the Germans and Japanese actually pay for those American bases on their soil.

Ignorance is a poor foundation for an opinion, and it shows.

 

BTW, the United States do not protect Germany. To think otherwise is very delusional.

The lying moron is completely unreliable about article 5 and the whole country habitually ignores and violates article 1 of the North Atlantic Treaty. USN and U.S.Army are almost entirely useless for the defence of Germany, and what little U.S. military is in Germany is rather using it as a hub for stupid small wars. The two brigades in Germany are by design impotent in face of Russian mechanised forces. About half of the U.S.military thinks Russia is an ally, and about one-fifth of the U.S. population. There's no threat to Germany to protect against anyway.

 

Americans are useless to Germany in regard to foreign policy and security policy nowadays - they're more an annoyance than anything else. And that's putting it nicely. Germany would very likely consider the U.S. a hostile and aggressive fascist power if it weren't for path dependency.


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#16566 JasonJ

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Posted Today, 04:37 PM

Again, the US is stationing troops in Japan for mutual benefit. If this point is not recognize or ignored, then leave Japan.

Of course it's recognized. How recognized is it on Japan's part? If the US needed JMSDF ships to perform operations in say the Gulf of Mexico for 30 years, would Japan be able to do it? Would Japan do it?Let me try an analogy.Ever have anyone give you a ride in their car on a regular basis? Do you chip in for fuel? The guy paying for the car, that you don't have, pays for the car, for the insurance, the maintenance, asking you to chip in for more gas money means what in Japanese cultural views? (I honestly don't know, what's the rule on something like this in Japanese etiquette?)The analogy that I think is more pervasive is that the US is Japan's Godzilla in reality. Initially we destroyed Japan, but then we became it's protector. Sometimes Godzilla needs a little something from the JSDF, sometimes a little more. How's Japan going to fare if Godzilla can't come when キングギドラ Kingu Gidora arrives?Just look at US Ballistic Missile defense work.US Space Based sensors. Launch detection of Missiles by the NORKSGBI (US defense mostly (Canada too))SM-3 (terminal defense - Japan is buying this how much US tax payer $$$ is invested in this system development?)PAC-3 (terminal defense - Same as SM-3)Sure, Japan is buying components out of the larger BMD tool box. How long has the US tax payer paid for that tool box? Are you going to get BMD systems out of the UK?

If I make counter points about Japanese military rocket and missile potential, it'll just get spun around and intepreted the wrong way I get the feeling of.
 
That's how debate takes place. No one is owed agreement to their opinions and the number and size of posts is no substitute for being right. Sometimes, there simply is not agreement in the end.

You guys are literally making arguments for American imperialism disguised as arguments for isolation.
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#16567 JasonJ

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Posted Today, 04:39 PM

The US perspective is really screwed up here. On the one hand they want tribute for defending Japan. On the other hand, they dont want Japan to defend itself, and to be wholly reliant on the US. They really have tried to do this, and the US Government has hobbled them at every given opportunity, because US manufacturers keep bleating about it.

 
Who doesn't want Japan to defend itself? We've been taking crap for begging, cajoling and pushing allies to spend more on their own defense. Trump just got NATO to promise (we'll see if they actually fulfill their pledges) for hundreds of billions in additional spending on their defense. I'd love to see Japan take a larger active role in countering China along with the other Pacific allies. Provided of course that it doesn't reawaken the Japanese expansionist dragon. How have we hobbled them from doing so? Of course we'd like to sell our defense products to them, that only makes sense. The UK and any other rational nation seeks to do the same.

In general, a good and fair posture.
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#16568 JasonJ

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Posted Today, 04:43 PM

How does the Trump supporters of this thread feel about the following? Do y'all feel it is a true statement? Do you feel it is not necessarily true but serves for good bargaining position for coming cost sharing negotiations? Or do you feel its not true but he said it it more as to reduce a singling out effect of criticism on European NATO countries? If any criticism was to be made, shouldn't it be at Japan's 1% GDP defense budget rather than cost sharing? Anything else about it, cost-sharing, or the US-Japan alliance in general?
Trump:
"I've asked Japan. I said to Prime Minister Abe, a friend of mine, Shinzo. I said, 'You have to help us out here. We're paying a lot of money. You're a wealthy nation. And we're, you know, paying for your military essentially," Trump said in London where he is visiting to attend a summit of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Spoiler
https://mainichi.jp/...00m/0na/003000c
He made that statment right around the time I made this post.http://www.tank-net....17#entry1458932

Fully correct. Either those countries pay America for the protection offered, or America should withdraw. I hope the withdrawl from Germany starts 2020,

The "And we're, you know, paying for your military essentially," part is just so incorrect.

I would like to think the majority of Trump supporters here could just see it as Trump talking his talk, but only Tim was able to say it.

So literally at the mercy of what Trump says, regardless what the circumstances are.
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#16569 JasonJ

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Posted Today, 04:57 PM

The answer is in the links that I gave you. But I also have said before that its been talked about before by Japanese right wing talking heads that if the US did leave Japan, then Japan would have to boost defense budhet to about 2 to 3% of GDP. That would be something like going to 120 billion USD annually. It would be twice Russia's defense budget...

 
Japan's current defense budget is 1% of GDP, so about 50 billion?  It currently pays the US about 4 billion?  Seems cheaper to pay an extra 4 billion to the US a year rather than 50 billion on its own, doesn't it?  Don't overlook that Japan taps into a massive network of US strategic assets for free that back up the 50,000 US troops in Japan.  The 50,000 that Japan pays some for are really just tripwire.  The real cost to defending Japan is the hammer behind that tripwire - the satellites, additional missiles and aircraft, additional ships, ICBM's, B-2's, Boomers, nuclear weapons.  Japan would have to replace all that, and on top, be in violation of nuclear non-proliferation treaties, (fat chance, IMO, that Russia or China are going to allow Japan nuclear weapons legally).

Epsilon is probably easily convertable to a nuclear missile. There are military observation and communication satilites going up. Japan is more than able to make SSBNs. Some US missiles use Japanese tech such PAC-2 and SM-3 Block2A. People are taking this high nose position about their military without knowing anything. What does that say about integrity or credibility?

All this discussion because people can't say one thing that Trump said was incorrect. Its depressing all the beating around the bush.

Edited by JasonJ, Today, 06:30 PM.

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#16570 JasonJ

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Posted Today, 04:59 PM

https://youtu.be/Hw_nbhaYTeQ
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#16571 Nobu

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Posted Today, 06:16 PM

Trump has shown Japan bashing tendencies since the 80s when it was fashionable for America and Americans to do so. Paying for defense is the symptom, not the disease.
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#16572 rmgill

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Posted Today, 08:03 PM

You guys are literally making arguments for American imperialism disguised as arguments for isolation.


How are these arguments for imperialism? If it was imperialism then Japan's diet would be appointing PM's that the US Congress or Presidnet has veto power over. OR we'd be appointing a Governor as your PM ourselves.

If you want to be treated like an equal you have to foot the same sort of bill. You don't. So, either you're a junior partner OR something else.
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#16573 JasonJ

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Posted 52 minutes ago

You guys are literally making arguments for American imperialism disguised as arguments for isolation.

How are these arguments for imperialism? If it was imperialism then Japan's diet would be appointing PM's that the US Congress or Presidnet has veto power over. OR we'd be appointing a Governor as your PM ourselves.If you want to be treated like an equal you have to foot the same sort of bill. You don't. So, either you're a junior partner OR something else.

...
But look what's going on. The US military continues very active activities in military excahanges with practically all countries in Asia, is running the FONOPs, trying to amways be the primary arm supplier to countries to counter China, passed the HK democracy bill, meet Fat-Kim, all the while requesting Japan to pay more for US troops instead of require Japan to pay more in defense expenditure [for its own defense], and so on. So it seems to me that the US driven either by Trump or the Deep State, or both, the US is very committed in being the biggest player in balancing China, dealing with DPRK, and so on.
...

http://www.tank-net....26#entry1459860
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#16574 DougRichards

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Posted 11 minutes ago

From his own campaign:

 

11791902-3x2-700x467.jpg


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