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German Puma Upgrades

German Puma upgrades

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#1 Dawes

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 0949 AM

Regarding this new "Turret Independent Secondary Weapons System", is this supposed to be some sort of improved grenade launcher system?:

 

https://www.rheinmet...index_12160.php


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#2 methos

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 0955 AM

See here: http://www.tank-net....31817&p=1314767


Edited by methos, 30 July 2017 - 0955 AM.

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#3 Panzermann

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1202 PM

To prepare the Schützenpanzer Puma  for the VJTF participation scheduled for 2023 a whopping 40 Pumas are to be equipped with new comms tech (encrypted radios, faster and more data transport) for  about 500 million €URos. A third R&D, a third for hard and software (to be determined which) and a third for support, replacement parts etc. This has not yet been budgeted and when is in the air, because of the current unwillingness to do anything in Berlin.  Bundeswehr says that by 2020 the tech should be delivered, otherwise no fancy networked warfare in 2023, because the equipment comes too late to train the crews properly.

 

 

https://www.n-tv.de/...le20251868.html

(in german)

 

 

 

 

That is an ambtious schedule. To decide on a system and develop and install hard and software within two years. And no financing yet.


Edited by Panzermann, 28 January 2018 - 1203 PM.

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#4 lastdingo

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1234 PM

They're introducing small quantities of modern radios before deciding on a supplier for the new generation of (digital) radios.

 

Bundeswehr hardware procurement is in utter disrepair on all levels - right up to the MoD and the parliamentary committee.

The only ones I do not blame up there are the finance politicians; the finance committee and minister of finance. There would be enough money if the Bundeswehr knew how to use it best.

Two fully equipped, very well-trained and rapidly deployable (48 hrs to combat readiness NE of Warsaw) mechanised brigades would be worth more for collective defence than the entire Heer is today.


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#5 Panzermann

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1358 PM

They're introducing small quantities of modern radios before deciding on a supplier for the new generation of (digital) radios.

 
40 Pumas to be equipped is actually not that small a number. It is to implement networked warfare from dismounted grenadiers up into the cockpit of a jet overhead for handing over targets. So that makes at least 40 radios for the Pumas, plus the staff vehicles of company and battalion commanders. Then the radios for the dismounts of which i am not sure are already able for data transmission (and if they are, are they compatible with the new radios?)

And then this interim system is then going to be supplanted by a different incompatible system I bet...
 
Meanwhile the troops make do and carry half a dozen different radios to be able to talk to everybody: the various old SEM models and a few ad hoc procured US made PRC-117. In the age of software defined radios. <_<
 

Bundeswehr hardware procurement is in utter disrepair on all levels - right up to the MoD and the parliamentary committee.
The only ones I do not blame up there are the finance politicians; the finance committee and minister of finance. There would be enough money if the Bundeswehr knew how to use it best.
Two fully equipped, very well-trained and rapidly deployable (48 hrs to combat readiness NE of Warsaw) mechanised brigades would be worth more for collective defence than the entire Heer is today.

 
Agree that the Bundeswehr is no credible threat to anybody at the moment. Currently it is overstretched, underequipped and not really able to fulfill its missions. Well von der Leyen promised full equipment of all units according to STANAG.
 
 
The pursers are not to blame for the radios, as BmVg has not asked yet for a budget. But with the political circus prefering to gaze their navels and sitting on their hands at the moment the budget will be delayed and there is no time to waste. but nobody dares to act at the moment. said with everything on hold in Berlin nobody dares to make a decision, although there is no way around paying for the comms system if there is to be Pumas deployed in '23. No matter what government we are going to have the next three and a half years, Germany has taken the responsibility to lead VJTF.



edit: there is still no MELLS integrated. Or any other ATGM system.

Edited by Panzermann, 28 January 2018 - 1400 PM.

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#6 Panzermann

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1418 PM

hartpunkt.de has a better listing what is to be in the 500 million package.

a third is for general maintenance, replacement parts and support in the baltics, a third is R&D and the last third is for buying the new TSWA (turret independent grenade launcher), the coax machine gun in 7,62 and bringing the Pumas up to the newest block (e.g. replacing the CRT monitors, improved optics systems) and finally mounting MELLS.




https://www.hartpunk...-eur/#more-3287


Other items are the lack of 155 mm for arty training, a new armoured medic vehicle and a new AEV.


I bet this is all going to be pushed into next year and this year is wasted budgetwise.
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#7 Dawes

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1421 PM

Any hope of foreign sales for Puma?


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#8 Panzermann

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1426 PM

Any hope of foreign sales for Puma?


Curretly in the competition for replacing the czech BVP-2 fleet afaik.
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#9 2805662

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 1723 PM

Glad theyre shifting to a 7.62mm coax. Remember being briefed by a H&K guy in 2010 that 5.56mm in a coax had superior lethality than a 7.62mm. *sceptical nod*
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#10 Deltic

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 0313 AM

Glad theyre shifting to a 7.62mm coax. Remember being briefed by a H&K guy in 2010 that 5.56mm in a coax had superior lethality than a 7.62mm. *sceptical nod*

 

Maybe he meant more stowed kills?


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#11 methos

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 0617 AM

If I remember correctly, the main arguments that were cited for the MG4 were the lower weight, the commonality with the infantry squad's armament and the "no range disadvantage" (Heckler & Koch claimed that the MG4 would be effective up to a range of 600 metres, while at greater ranges the 30 mm MK 30-2/ABM would allways be used, due to its higher lethality and much better accuracy compared to all types of machine guns). Penetration of the MG4 firing DM31 ammunition is claimed to be 13.5 mm steel at 100 metres.

 

 

In the Czech trials, the Puma supposedly did extremely well, hitting 37 out of 40 shots (five rounds were fired per target, so the Puma didn't miss a single target), while all other IFVs (ASCOD, CV90 and Lynx) missed at least one target. The second best IFV supposedly hit only about half of all shots (so roughly twenty). The Czech military officially declared the Puma their prefered option, since a few weeks the German companies are negotiating with the Czech industry regarding the licence production of the Puma.

 

It is also offered to Australia, although the IFV program (LAND 400 Phase 3, replacement for the M113AS4) has not officially started and informations regarding it are changing every few weeks. Originally it was reported that the Puma will be offered to Australia despite the fact that it failed on of the key requirements (not enough dismount capacity). Subsequently the requirements were altered (only six dismounts required), which a lot of people assume was made to allow the Puma taking part (IIRC this happened after the Czech trials, where the Puma emerged as winner). Latest info however says that the Australian military might be looking for a cheaper solution and has asked the companies behind the two shortlisted offers for the LAND 400 Phase 2 (ASLAV replacement, either going to be AMV or Boxer) to also provide offeers based on the same vehicles for LAND 400 Phase 3.


Edited by methos, 30 January 2018 - 0617 AM.

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#12 Colin

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 0030 AM

The purpose of defense is to keep the defense companies running and create jobs which creates votes....


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#13 2805662

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 0342 AM

The purpose of defense is to keep the defense companies running and create jobs which creates votes....


Its all an elaborate work of the dole scheme.
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#14 Panzermann

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 1352 PM

 

 

Land Platforms
PSM details Puma AIFV upgrades
Christopher F Foss, London - Jane's International Defence Review
16 July 2018


The German Army’s Puma armoured infantry fighting vehicle (AIFV) will be upgraded in two key steps that Projekt System & Management GmbH (PSM) calls Puma S1 and Puma S2.

PSM is a joint venture of Rheinmetall and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann.

Puma S1 covers command-and-control, situational awareness, and enhanced anti-tank capability; S2 adds a killer-killer capability.

For S1, the Puma’s open electronic architecture will allow a PRC117 satellite embedded radio system to be installed, as well as the latest software designed radios that, according to PSM, will “enable more effective communication during joint task force operations”.

Situational awareness is to be improved by replacing current black-and-white cameras with thermal and colour cameras to provide an all-weather capability with information displayed at the commander’s, gunner’s, and driver’s stations, as well as on screens for the dismounts.

An additional improvement for the 360° situational awareness system is to incorporate fuzed-image technology so that “every member of the crew is actively involved in reconnaissance tasks when mounted”, the company said.

The driver also has a new day/night front and rear thermal camera system.

The S1 firepower upgrade is designed to enable Puma to engage main battle tanks (MBTs) and other targets at long range. Accordingly, a twin launcher for the EuroSpike Long Range anti-tank guided weapon (ATGW) LR1 will be integrated externally on the turret’s left side. This was fully qualified over a two-year period under a EUR68 million (USD79.4 million) contract, with the system installed on two of the original series production Puma AIFVs.

Targets can be engaged with EuroSpike LR1 by the commander or gunner using their standard control handles and the already installed monitor systems.

Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options at ihs.com/contact
To read the full article, Client Login
(297 of 712 words)
 

http://www.janes.com...a-aifv-upgrades

 

 

Eurosatory 2018

Puma enters Marder domain [ES18D5]
 
15 June 2018



PSM (Projekt System & Management) (Stand D230, External Pe6B) is prime contractor for the German Army’s Puma armoured infantry fighting vehicle (AIFV), which has now started to replace the Marder 1A3/A4/A5 IFV in some units.

PSM is a joint venture between Rheinmetall Defence and Krauss- Maffei Wegmann, with each company having a Puma AIFV production line.

The German Army has placed contracts for 350 Pumas, including eight driver training vehicles; so far, 200 have been delivered, with production running at 66 vehicles a year.

Final deliveries are due in 2020.

The Puma AIFV is fitted with a remote-controlled turret armed with a Mauser 30mm MK 30-2 air bursting munition cannon and a 5.56mm MG4 coaxial machine gun. A number of capability enhancements are to take place.

Puma S1 includes improvements in the key areas of command and control and situational awareness, with a two-round launcher on the left side of the turret for the Spike LR antitank guided weapon also to be included under the S1 upgrade.

The current 5.56mm machine gun will be replaced by a 7.62mm gun under the S2 upgrade and Puma will also be fitted with the rear grenade launcher, which will be capable of firing lethal or nonlethal munitions over the rear arc.

Puma is being offered on the export market and was one of the vehicles recently tested in the Czech Republic, but the final downselect has yet to be announced.

(237 words)

 
http://www.janes.com...r-domain-es18d5


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#15 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 1519 PM

The purpose of defense is to keep the defense companies running and create jobs which creates votes....

 

It really depends on the country and the system.  Canada and the US take their LAV/Stryker programs seriously and expect to use them on actual missions and so even if the resulting vehicles are sometimes expensive the vehicles are still built and supplied with enough spare parts and maintenance to stay functional.  There's no magic to it, just the determination that "We need these things to do what we need to do." and the willingness to pay the needed costs.

 

But Germany isn't willing to make such decisions, for reasons I don't understand.  So for the time being instead of Boxers or Pumas in the Baltic States we'll keep having LAV/Strykers and Bradleys deployed there instead.  And we'll have Americans and maybe even Canadians annoyed that they keep having to do the job Germany claims is important but refuses to do itself.


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#16 Colin

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 0017 AM

Pretty sad when you have to look up at Canada's procurement system, at that point you have hit bottom and started digging..... 


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#17 BansheeOne

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 0031 AM

So for the time being instead of Boxers or Pumas in the Baltic States we'll keep having LAV/Strykers and Bradleys deployed there instead.

 

Uh, what? Boxers are deployed to Lithuania right now, and have been for two years (not counting the ones procured by Lithuania itself). Pumas will probably take another couple years to filter in for Marder; Panzergrenadierbataillon 371 which is currently providing the German mechanized infantry element in eFP Battlegroup Lithuania is still on the latter.


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#18 Panzermann

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 1632 PM

 

So for the time being instead of Boxers or Pumas in the Baltic States we'll keep having LAV/Strykers and Bradleys deployed there instead.

 

Uh, what? Boxers are deployed to Lithuania right now, and have been for two years (not counting the ones procured by Lithuania itself). Pumas will probably take another couple years to filter in for Marder; Panzergrenadierbataillon 371 which is currently providing the German mechanized infantry element in eFP Battlegroup Lithuania is still on the latter.

 

 

 

IIRC next rotation is to come from L9 and L92 has Puma IFV as well as Marder, so could well be close.


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#19 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 1829 PM

 

 

So for the time being instead of Boxers or Pumas in the Baltic States we'll keep having LAV/Strykers and Bradleys deployed there instead.

 

Uh, what? Boxers are deployed to Lithuania right now, and have been for two years (not counting the ones procured by Lithuania itself). Pumas will probably take another couple years to filter in for Marder; Panzergrenadierbataillon 371 which is currently providing the German mechanized infantry element in eFP Battlegroup Lithuania is still on the latter.

 

 

 

IIRC next rotation is to come from L9 and L92 has Puma IFV as well as Marder, so could well be close.

 

 

And are the forces being sent up to TO&E?  I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just asking.


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#20 BansheeOne

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 0409 AM

The units that get deployed are usually up to spec - at the expense of army-wide borrowing, scrounging and UOR procurement of equipment. In the previous Bundeswehr reform, this was actually designed into the structure; there were only about 70 percent combat systems to eqip all units, on the theory that they wouldn't deploy all at once anyway and those who did would be passed the required material. Which tends to lead to neglect of stuff you don't own yourself, and of course the Bundeswehr had been penny-pinching on spare parts in particular for decades, resulting in embarrassments like the recent stories of only eight fully combat-ready Eurofighters with just about 20 AMRAAMs between them, not one single of the six Type 212A submarines fit to sail, etc.

 

Though it's not just the expensive stuff that makes such headlines, and not necessarily for financial reasons; for the German contribution to VJTF 2019, a Bundeswehr-wide call went out for soldiers to donate their issue balaclavas to needy comrades. IIRC just when everybody had worked himself into a good fit of rage over that, pointed out that used facewear cannot actually be re-issued per regulations, and they had decided to procure an extra 6,400 items at a price of € 6.44 ea, they found that there were actually sufficient left in storage, which had just not been known to the authority in charge ...

 

The underequipped-by-design system was abolished two years ago now, the defense budget is being raised rather quickly and extra vehicles and other equipment are being procured, but there could be more in the budgets for 2020 ff., and as usual the procurement system works at glacial speed (not necessarily just on the government side - the re-buy and upgrade of 104 Leopard 2s was being held up by KMW and Rheinmetall quarreling over whom of them gets which share of the work). Most of all, 25 years of underfinancing are not going to be undone in one or two government terms; two years ago Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen identified a total additional need of 130 billion Euro until 2030 to remedy the neglect, which at current plans we're fare from reaching.


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