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Saab Viggen Vs Draken


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#21 lastdingo

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 0513 AM

BTW, when judging the Draken keep in mind that it was armed with either

  • two 30 mm guns (A, B, D)
  • the ineffective Falcon missiles (hit to kill, suitable only against bombers) and a single 30 mm gun with few rounds (F)

The 30 mm rounds purchased in the 60's did likely have too much delay. Early DEFA/ADEN 30 mm fuses were meant to kill bombers with a delay for explosion inside. This was poorly suited to fighter combat; hits on wings and stabilisers merely punched holes with ineffective explosions too far on the other side. The West corrected its fuses only slowly after the Israelis discovered the issue (and issues with using the radar to support aiming) in 1967.

 

Many competing fighters were much better armed by the 70's, such as with improved Sidewinder-pattern missiles. The F-5's guns were probably much superior due to much higher muzzle velocity as well (though certainly not at night).

 

 

Overall, the first Mach 2 generation of fighters had remarkably poor air combat armament. Too much focus had been on speed & climb rate as well as avionics.



#22 Olof Larsson

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 0643 AM

BTW, when judging the Draken keep in mind that it was armed with either

  • two 30 mm guns (A, B, D)
  • the ineffective Falcon missiles (hit to kill, suitable only against bombers) and a single 30 mm gun with few rounds (F)

The 30 mm rounds purchased in the 60's did likely have too much delay. Early DEFA/ADEN 30 mm fuses were meant to kill bombers with a delay for explosion inside. This was poorly suited to fighter combat; hits on wings and stabilisers merely punched holes with ineffective explosions too far on the other side. The West corrected its fuses only slowly after the Israelis discovered the issue (and issues with using the radar to support aiming) in 1967.

 

Many competing fighters were much better armed by the 70's, such as with improved Sidewinder-pattern missiles. The F-5's guns were probably much superior due to much higher muzzle velocity as well (though certainly not at night).

 

 

Overall, the first Mach 2 generation of fighters had remarkably poor air combat armament. Too much focus had been on speed & climb rate as well as avionics.

 

The following A-A armament was available for the J35:

J35A - 2x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B.

J35B - 2x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B or 2x19-shot 75mm anti aircraft rockets.

J35D - 2x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B

J35F - 1x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B, 4xAIM-9P-3, 4xAIM-4C or 4xAIM26B or a mix of those missiles.

J35J - 1x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B, 4xAIM-9P-3, 4xAIM-4C, 4xAIM26B or 4x19-shot 75mm anti aircraft rockets or a mix of those missiles and rockets

 

The AIM-4D that was used in Vietnam (were it had a PK similar to contemporary AIM-7's and AIM-9's), was never used on the Draken.

 

Export customers could use other similar missile.

For instance, the finns used Sidewinders and Atoll-missiles from their J35's.

 

As for the anti-bomber optimated 30mm fuzes, ISTR recall, that IDF-AF noted this problem as early as 1959, when the first air-combat with their Vautours took place.


Edited by Olof Larsson, 10 September 2017 - 0645 AM.


#23 Olof Larsson

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1209 PM

 

BTW, when judging the Draken keep in mind that it was armed with either

  • two 30 mm guns (A, B, D)
  • the ineffective Falcon missiles (hit to kill, suitable only against bombers) and a single 30 mm gun with few rounds (F)

The 30 mm rounds purchased in the 60's did likely have too much delay. Early DEFA/ADEN 30 mm fuses were meant to kill bombers with a delay for explosion inside. This was poorly suited to fighter combat; hits on wings and stabilisers merely punched holes with ineffective explosions too far on the other side. The West corrected its fuses only slowly after the Israelis discovered the issue (and issues with using the radar to support aiming) in 1967.

 

Many competing fighters were much better armed by the 70's, such as with improved Sidewinder-pattern missiles. The F-5's guns were probably much superior due to much higher muzzle velocity as well (though certainly not at night).

 

 

Overall, the first Mach 2 generation of fighters had remarkably poor air combat armament. Too much focus had been on speed & climb rate as well as avionics.

 

The following A-A armament was available for the J35:

J35A - 2x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B.

J35B - 2x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B or 2x19-shot 75mm anti aircraft rockets.

J35D - 2x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B

J35F - 1x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B, 4xAIM-9P-3, 4xAIM-4C or 4xAIM26B or a mix of those missiles.

J35J - 1x30mm ADEN and 4xAIM-9B, 4xAIM-9P-3, 4xAIM-4C, 4xAIM26B or 4x19-shot 75mm anti aircraft rockets or a mix of those missiles and rockets

 

Got the J35J wrong. It should have been:

 

J35J - 1x30mm ADEN and 6xAIM-9B, 6xAIM-9P-3, 4xAIM-4C, 4xAIM26B or 4x19-shot 75mm anti aircraft rockets or a mix of those missiles and rockets.

4 pylons (two under the fuselage and one under each wing) could use any of the stores mentioned (and 530l drop tanks), and two new pylons behind the air inlets only Sidewinders.

 

J35D and F, were limited to 2 droptanks and the A/B/C only one.

The photorecce S25E could carry 4 cans.

The danish F-35 Draken could carry 1275l tanks.



#24 BJE

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1229 PM

The Falcon may have been ineffective in the fighter vs fighter combat of the Vietnam war. But our goal was to intercept and shoot down bombers and attack aircraft, not to engage in combat with Soviet fighters that would not have had the range to reach most parts of Sweden at the time Draken was our primary fighter.



#25 a77

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1253 PM

IIRC the Draken had a terrible limitation of its hardpoints/pylons; a limitation to 1,000 lbs (=what i remember) or some other way too restrictive weight limit.

This explains the lack of photos showing Drakens with big fuel tanks or heavy bombs or heavy missiles..

 

The Swedich Dragons was a pure interceptor, hence no need for strong hardpoints, and the Swedich air force did have a hoards of J-32 Lansen to do the bombing.

The Dane did have the F-35XD Dragon, it was simplified and optimize for carring bombs, max load 4 450kg bombs and 2 drop tanks

   

#26 lastdingo

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1309 PM

RB-24 = AIM-9B

RB-24J ~ AIM-9J

RB-28 (Jaktrobot Robotsystem 28) = AIM-4C

RB-74~AIM-9L

 

The Sidewinder B really doesn't need be mentioned. It was no better than a Falcon...it may even have been less useful than a Falcon because the RF fuze was a liability, but utility in a dogfight was near zero.



#27 RETAC21

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1408 PM

10 kills over the Taiwan strait, 28 in Vietnam and 8 in India kind of show that it was not "near zero", but hey...



#28 Olof Larsson

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1448 PM

The Falcon may have been ineffective in the fighter vs fighter combat of the Vietnam war. But our goal was to intercept and shoot down bombers and attack aircraft, not to engage in combat with Soviet fighters that would not have had the range to reach most parts of Sweden at the time Draken was our primary fighter.

 

And we didn't use the IR-guided AIM-9D with far to limited onboard cooling, but we used the radar-guider AIM-9C and the larger AIM-26B, with a 18kg warhead.

Here a picture of a J35J with 2xAIM-9P-3 (modified), 2xAIM-26B (modified) and two drop-tanks:

 

Draken-7.jpg



#29 wendist

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1516 PM

 

The Falcon may have been ineffective in the fighter vs fighter combat of the Vietnam war. But our goal was to intercept and shoot down bombers and attack aircraft, not to engage in combat with Soviet fighters that would not have had the range to reach most parts of Sweden at the time Draken was our primary fighter.

 

And we didn't use the IR-guided AIM-9D with far to limited onboard cooling, but we used the radar-guider AIM-9C and the larger AIM-26B, with a 18kg warhead.

Here a picture of a J35J with 2xAIM-9P-3 (modified), 2xAIM-26B (modified) and two drop-tanks:

 

Draken-7.jpg

 

Are you sure about this?  :unsure: I have never heard of any radar guided Sidewinder missiles in the Swedish AF.



#30 Olof Larsson

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1644 PM

Are you sure about this?  :unsure: I have never heard of any radar guided Sidewinder missiles in the Swedish AF.


I managed ty type AIM-9, rather than AIM-4 :unsure:



#31 Dawes

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1811 PM

Draken intakes seemed to sit fairly high off of the ground. I would think that FOD was not the concern it would be in other types?



#32 Markus Becker

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 1833 PM

But Draken was not noticeably worse than its contemporaries. (F-104 Starfighter...)
 



Not being worse than that thing is hardly a challenge. ;)

#33 wendist

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 1451 PM

 

Are you sure about this?  :unsure: I have never heard of any radar guided Sidewinder missiles in the Swedish AF.


I managed ty type AIM-9, rather than AIM-4 :unsure:

 

Those things happen. Gave me a wtf moment since there actually existed a SARH model named AIM-9C but we never bought it. Maybe we should have?



#34 shep854

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 0748 AM

Another F-5 drift; yet another life in the little tiger--and other older fighters?? From StrategyPage:

https://www.strategy...s/20170915.aspx

Warplanes: F-5E And Beyond

"An Israeli firm (Elbit) announced it had received a $93 million contract to upgrade F-5E fighters with modern cockpits, radar, fire control and navigation systems as well as DASH “smart” helmets that enable pilots to look at the target through the visor, on which is displayed fire control data, and press a button (or give a verbal command) to launch a missile or smart bomb."


Edited by shep854, 15 September 2017 - 0748 AM.


#35 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 0757 AM

At the risk of dragging the thread off course, this looks quite good.



#36 Panzermann

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 0824 AM

Another F-5 drift; yet another life in the little tiger--and other older fighters?? From StrategyPage:

https://www.strategy...s/20170915.aspx

Warplanes: F-5E And Beyond

"An Israeli firm (Elbit) announced it had received a $93 million contract to upgrade F-5E fighters with modern cockpits, radar, fire control and navigation systems as well as DASH “smart” helmets that enable pilots to look at the target through the visor, on which is displayed fire control data, and press a button (or give a verbal command) to launch a missile or smart bomb."

 

Good guess in the article that it is probably Thailand. Also the mentioned MiG-21 upgrades they offer. Do they also do J-7?

 

All this modern stuff in a Draken airframe... Well one can dream.



#37 wendist

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 0845 AM

 

Another F-5 drift; yet another life in the little tiger--and other older fighters?? From StrategyPage:

https://www.strategy...s/20170915.aspx

Warplanes: F-5E And Beyond

"An Israeli firm (Elbit) announced it had received a $93 million contract to upgrade F-5E fighters with modern cockpits, radar, fire control and navigation systems as well as DASH “smart” helmets that enable pilots to look at the target through the visor, on which is displayed fire control data, and press a button (or give a verbal command) to launch a missile or smart bomb."

 

Good guess in the article that it is probably Thailand. Also the mentioned MiG-21 upgrades they offer. Do they also do J-7?

 

All this modern stuff in a Draken airframe... Well one can dream.

 

That´s the thought I had in the early days of development of the new JAS 39. Maybe they could have used a J35 as some kind of tech demonstrator. The Gripens engine, radar and maybe even the fly-by-wire  system tested first in a Draken. :wub:  :D



#38 Adam Peter

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 1050 AM

Do you want a ready Draken rebooting instead of taking off after receiving an alert?  :D 

 

 

​An unidentified plane entered the airspace of Hungary on 20.08.2017. From the two ready Gripen one was able to take off, the other needed rebooting which taken a few minutes. The flyable one did the visual identification and the escorting out of airspace while the rebooting one on the ground was in high readiness state.



#39 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 1100 AM

'This aircraft has 20 updates to install and will now restart'.



#40 BJE

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 1636 PM

'This aircraft has 20 updates to install and will now restart'.

When in Afghanistan I was told that the reason the casevac was a Blackhawk with another Blackhawk as escort instead of an Apache was that the startup time for the Apache was too long. When the Apache had booted up the Blackhawks were already in the air...






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