Jump to content


Photo

Sea Ceptor


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#21 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,756 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 08 September 2017 - 0212 AM

better than what the Canadians have which is zip

 

Ill have to have a look and see who is providing the ADA capability to the Canadian contribution to the Latvian EFP battlegroup. it will be interesting to see if that focuses minds in the Canadian MOD.



#22 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,441 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 September 2017 - 0529 AM

Don't they use ADATS any more?



#23 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,756 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 08 September 2017 - 0710 AM

Not exactly related to the subject under discussion, but we dont have a dedicated RN thread and I figure this will do.

http://www.janes.com...hip-procurement

  • The Royal Navy's Type 31e General Purpose Frigate programme is regarded as the catalyst to an enterprise-wide transformation
  • The build of a class of up to three new Future Solid Support ships will be subject to international competition

A return to open competition, improved governance structures, and a greater focus on exportability are the principal aims of the UK government's new National Shipbuilding Strategy, published by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 6 September.

Steller Spartan's concept for the Type 31e GPFF, regarded as the catalyst to an enterprise-wide transformation. (Steller Spartan)

Announced to Parliament by UK Secretary of State for Defence Michael Fallon, the strategy – which overwhelmingly accepts recommendations made in businessman John Parker's 2016 independent National Shipbuilding Strategy report – will use the Royal Navy's (RN) Type 31e General Purpose Frigate programme (GPFF) as the catalyst for an enterprise-wide transformation. A fast-track acquisition programme is planned for an initial batch of five Type 31e frigates, at a maximum cost of GBP250 million (USD326.8 million) per vessel.

However, although warship construction for the RN will remain within the UK, the plan has ruled against mandating an onshore build of a class of up to three new Future Solid Support (FSS) ships. Instead, the acquisition of these vessels – categorised as 'non-warships' – will be subject to international competition.

Presented by the government as part of a wider industrial strategy to foster economic growth in the post-Brexit era, the National Shipbuilding Strategy outlines a plan to reverse the process of sector consolidation pursued since the 2005 Defence Industrial Strategy. This culminated in July 2009 in a 15-year terms-of-business agreement (ToBA) with BAE Systems, providing the company exclusivity on specified naval programmes and underwriting the maintenance of key industrial capabilities

 

Pity they cant see the value of sourcing in the UK for support ships. it might just be the catalyst that merchant shipbuilding needs.



#24 DB

DB

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,640 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hertfordshire, England

Posted 08 September 2017 - 1129 AM

Sea Ceptor? Well, I guess it sounds better than "Airseeker".

Guess what they're calling the land system.

#25 Argus

Argus

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,880 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 08 September 2017 - 1901 PM

 

 

Pity they cant see the value of sourcing in the UK for support ships. it might just be the catalyst that merchant shipbuilding needs.

 

Stuart, at a guess the UK simply doesn't have the capacity to build them. Camell Laird could (probably) do it, but IIRC there hasn't been a big commercial hull out of a UK yard since Harland & Wolff closed. CL should get there in time, but they've still working up and focused on repair - a couple of car ferries and an research ship is a good start, but that's all it is. I've got my fingers crossed mind you :)

 

shane


Edited by Argus, 08 September 2017 - 1902 PM.


#26 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,074 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 08 September 2017 - 1941 PM

 

Stuart, with 25km range and non line of sight to launcher capability the launchers can be well out of mortar range. Close defence is still Starstreak's role, albeit with a vastly reduced number of systems than we originally purchased.

 

We really need to look at ADA in the British Armed forces root and branch, because we really seem to be taking the view there will aways be an airforce to put a roof on it.

 

Well, CAMM will be vastly more effective in area coverage than Rapier FSC which was really only ever a point defence proposition - being non line of sight from the launcher will really help too. The biggest problem I can see is it can't be lifted by in service helicopters as it's mounted on an HX series 4x4 truck. That will place some limits on where they can be deployed. During the Falklands conflict, as you know, many Rapiers were deployed by helicopter.

 

Incidentally, this was news to me:

 

http://www.israeldef...l/en/node/28659

 

http://www.rafael.co.../Marketing.aspx



#27 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,756 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0153 AM

 

 

 

Pity they cant see the value of sourcing in the UK for support ships. it might just be the catalyst that merchant shipbuilding needs.

 

Stuart, at a guess the UK simply doesn't have the capacity to build them. Camell Laird could (probably) do it, but IIRC there hasn't been a big commercial hull out of a UK yard since Harland & Wolff closed. CL should get there in time, but they've still working up and focused on repair - a couple of car ferries and an research ship is a good start, but that's all it is. I've got my fingers crossed mind you :)

 

shane

 

Yeah fair point Shane. Well coming from a family that was heavily involved in Shipbuilding, its a national disgrace how we allowed that industry to decline to the level we did. Its exceptionally good news Cammell Laird came back against all the odds. Thats one shipbuilding name I never expected to see again. Arent they building Sir David Attenborough, aka Boaty McBoatface?



#28 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,441 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0456 AM

Ceptor still lacks the energy to influence the air war much.

 

"25+ km" may be 27, but it may also be 40 km. Either way, it's likely not enough to deal with air superiority fighters doing their dancing at 50,000-60,000 ft.

CAMM-ER may become capable of that, but I doubt it will have a practical footprint against a manoeuvring 60,000 ft Mach 1.5 target.

 

A missile such as AMRAAM-ER or ESSM Blk II (once developed) far "forward" with land forces manoeuvre brigades would have a huge influence on the quest for air superiority.



#29 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,074 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 10 September 2017 - 1512 PM

Yes, we could really do with a much longer range system to augment it, but last had an area air defence system of any kind in very small numbers as long ago as 1977. 



#30 Dawes

Dawes

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,835 posts

Posted 10 September 2017 - 1929 PM

Sea Ceptor isn't really intended to be an AEGIS-type long range system, as I understand it, but more of a local area defense. 



#31 JasonJ

JasonJ

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 7,675 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 September 2017 - 0001 AM

RN does have Type 45 destroyers with long range AD by being equipped with Aster 30. Type 23s might be too small for effective use of long range AD missiles. New versions of Aster 30 being developed start getting BMD which could be an option for Type 45 destroyers. It looks like Type 26 will use VLS 41mk. but seems to be intended for only anti-ship and ground targets.



#32 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,441 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 11 September 2017 - 0200 AM

RN does have Type 45 destroyers with long range AD by being equipped with Aster 30. Type 23s might be too small for effective use of long range AD missiles. New versions of Aster 30 being developed start getting BMD which could be an option for Type 45 destroyers. It looks like Type 26 will use VLS 41mk. but seems to be intended for only anti-ship and ground targets.

 

Nothing is too small for that any more. You don't even need an onboard radar to make use of a Aster 30, SM-6 or soon ESSM Blk II. All you need is targeting data. That may come from an AEW system, a fighter or some other warship.

That's why I keep arguing that future FFG/DDG should be GP designs, not AAW specialised without LFASS and not ASW specialised without area air defences.



#33 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,756 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 11 September 2017 - 0205 AM

Yes, we could really do with a much longer range system to augment it, but last had an area air defence system of any kind in very small numbers as long ago as 1977. 

 

Thunderbird?



#34 JasonJ

JasonJ

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 7,675 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 September 2017 - 0208 AM

RN does have Type 45 destroyers with long range AD by being equipped with Aster 30. Type 23s might be too small for effective use of long range AD missiles. New versions of Aster 30 being developed start getting BMD which could be an option for Type 45 destroyers. It looks like Type 26 will use VLS 41mk. but seems to be intended for only anti-ship and ground targets.

 
Nothing is too small for that any more. You don't even need an onboard radar to make use of a Aster 30, SM-6 or soon ESSM Blk II. All you need is targeting data. That may come from an AEW system, a fighter or some other warship.
That's why I keep arguing that future FFG/DDG should be GP designs, not AAW specialised without LFASS and not ASW specialised without area air defences.

Budget could be a reason as well. Naturally the longer range missiles themselves will be more expensive. The Type 23 ships would need some reconstructing in order to fit in the proper VLS which might not leave enough room for the current AD launchers. I'm reminded of JMSDF destroyers actually. The only ones with SM-2 are the 4 Kongo's and 2 Atagos. All the other destroyers including the newer Akizuki class and the Asahi-class that is currently in construction class still use only ESSM. Sure it would be nice to have a full fleet of destroyers that can be equipped with a wider profile of weapons like the Burkes, but there are probably other reasons. Even France and Italian navies have only a small number of ships that have the Aster 30.

#35 DB

DB

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,640 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hertfordshire, England

Posted 16 September 2017 - 0849 AM

Sea Ceptor isn't really intended to be an AEGIS-type long range system, as I understand it, but more of a local area defense. 

It is a replacement for Sea Wolf in the Type 23.
As for putting something completely different in them, like a mk41 VLS, just note how much longer they are due to be in service.
As for Type26, it is expected to have 48 SAM cells and 24 others.

You msy speculate whether 48 requires quadpacked CAMM.

#36 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,074 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 17 September 2017 - 0958 AM

 

Yes, we could really do with a much longer range system to augment it, but last had an area air defence system of any kind in very small numbers as long ago as 1977. 

 

Thunderbird?

 

 

Mk2, yes :)



#37 Colin

Colin

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,905 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:tanks, old and new AFV's, Landrovers, diving, hovercrafts

Posted 17 September 2017 - 1654 PM

Don't they use ADATS any more?

Apparently we have the radar systems but no missiles or launchers 



#38 Panzermann

Panzermann

    REFORGER '79

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,911 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Teutonistan

Posted 18 September 2017 - 0638 AM

meanwhile harpoon's service is stretched until 2020

 

 

Key Points
  • The RN has deferred a decision to retire its Harpoon anti-ship missiles
  • The move will partially alleviate a capability gap in RN anti-ship missile capabilities

Boeing Harpoon heavy anti-ship missiles will remain in service on Royal Navy (RN) Type 23 frigates after the UK Ministry of Defence deferred a decision to retire the weapon in 2018 without replacement.

Speaking at the Defence and Security Equipment International (DSEI) 2017 defence exhibition, held in London from 11-15 September, senior RN sources told Jane’s the sea-skimming GWS 60/Harpoon Block 1C missiles would remain in service at least until 2020. “There is work ongoing to look at options for longer extension in service,” said one source.

 

 

 

http://www.janes.com...poon-retirement






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users