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#41 JasonJ

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 1007 AM

And of course, we like the counter view, so some, um, counter arguments, by Pro-CCP posters.

https://defence.pk/p...ousands.622459/


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#42 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 1050 AM

I hope the best for the protestors but they don't have a chance.

China will go after all of them

that's what the facial recognition software was all about


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#43 JasonJ

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 1935 PM

Have to hope that they have a chance.
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#44 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0539 AM

After the protestors surrounded the government legislature building and blocked roads, they decided to postpone the decision on the extradition bill. They made themselves a small win for now.

HONG KONG -- Protests in Hong Kong against a proposed law that would allow people to be extradited to mainland China turned violent on Wednesday afternoon, with police firing rubber bullets, tear gas and pepper spray to disperse crowds that had surrounded the city's main government compound.

Some demonstrators attempted to break through police barricades after thousands earlier occupied a main road in the city and blocked lawmakers from entering their complex, prompting the postponement of a scheduled debate on the bill by the Legislative Council.

Police said some protesters hurled objects -- including bricks, iron bars and road barriers -- at the police, injuring some officers. Television footage showed at least one police officer as well as other people being treated for injuries. Exact figures on the number and seriousness of injuries was not yet known.

Commissioner of Police Stephen Lo said the demonstrations had developed into a "riot" and that officers were "forced" to fire tear gas and rubber bullets to push back protesters who had tried to break the police blockade.

Many businesses, including major financial service companies such as HSBC Holdings, Standard Chartered, Deloitte and Ernst & Young, had earlier told their employees to work from home due to safety concerns. Many small shops in the area also were closed.

Wednesday's protests were reminiscent of the 2014 Occupy Central movement, also known as the Umbrella Movement, when activists blocked and camped out on major roads in Hong Kong's major government, business and commercial areas for 79 days to press the government to implement universal suffrage for the election of the city's leader.

The latest round of protests came as Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam continued to push for passage of the extradition bill. The president of the legislature, Andrew Leung, announced on Wednesday morning that debate on the bill had been postponed. Leung did not say how long the delay would last or whether a vote on the bill, which had been expected on June 20, would be affected.

The bill has been at the center of Hong Kong's political debate in recent months as the government moved to plug what it calls a loophole exposed by a homicide case. The government was not able to transfer a Hong Kong man accused of killing his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan because of the lack of an extradition agreement with the island. Hong Kong currently has extradition treaties with roughly just 20 jurisdictions around the world, and mainland China, Taiwan and Macao are not among them.

Opponents of the legislation say the bill would pave the way for fugitives to be sent to mainland China, where many legal experts believe suspects will not receive a fair trial given the Communist Party's control over the courts. Opponents also say the proposed law would undermine Hong Kong's autonomy and damage its competitiveness as a financial hub.

The Chinese government on Wednesday reiterated its support for the extradition law that would allow suspects to be sent to mainland China for trial, Reuters reported from Beijing. Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a news conference that any actions that harm Hong Kong are opposed by public opinion in the city.

The mostly young protesters say they are angry that the government is ignoring the voice of the people following a massive march on Sunday that organizers say drew more than 1 million people into the streets.

"I was little when Occupy Central happened," said 18-year-old Tracy Wu, who joined Wednesday's demonstration. "I don't know if protesting now will make a difference, but I'll regret it if I did not do it."

Frances Eve, deputy director of research at Chinese Human Rights Defenders, criticized the lack of independence in China's legal system.

"The Hong Kong government has legal obligations to protect human rights, which would be impossible if the planned amendments to the extradition bill go ahead," Eve told the Nikkei Asian Review, adding that the government should "listen to the overwhelming chorus of voices" speaking out against the bill and "halt this undemocratic push."

https://asia.nikkei....aw-turn-violent

 

Taiwanese media at the protests spot.


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#45 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0600 AM

Time lapse footage from a building of the demonstrators marching by two days ago.


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#46 JasonJ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0607 AM

A young Hong Kong demonstrator talking about the situation at the Japan National Press Club in Japanese on June 11th.

Tokyo should put pressure on the Hong Kong government to withdraw a controversial bill that would allow extraditions to mainland China, given Japan’s strong economic ties with the former British territory and the large number of mutual visits by tourists, a high-profile pro-democracy activist told a news conference in Tokyo.

Agnes Chow, a 22-year-old member of Demosisto, a Hong Kong party calling for the democratic self-determination of Hong Kongers, arrived in Tokyo on Monday after participating in Sunday’s massive protest march against the bill in the semi-autonomous region.

Chow, a college student with an affinity for Japanese pop culture, served in 2014 as a spokesperson of a student organization that participated in the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong.

“This time I came (to Japan) to draw attention to the amendments bill,” Chow said in fluent Japanese during the news conference at the Japan National Press Club on Monday.

“I want the Japanese government to pay more attention to this dangerous bill and put up guards (against it),” she said.

The extradition bill would allow the Hong Kong government to extradite certain criminals to mainland China, although the special administrative city government has claimed political prisoners would not be handed over to Beijing.

Chow pointed out that the extradition bill could be applied to foreign residents and visitors to Hong Kong as well, claiming that it would severely compromise freedom in Hong Kong and also damage its status as an international financial center.

Unlike other Chinese cities, Hong Kong is allowed to maintain a high level of autonomy under Beijing’s “one country, two systems” policy until at least 2047.

But the city’s political autonomy has been considerably compromised in recent years under the growing influence of the mainland’s central government.

During a regular news conference on Monday, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said the Japanese government is “paying close attention” to the extradition bill, and it hopes the one country, two systems policy will stay in place and that Hong Kong maintains its “free and open social system.” But he didn’t elaborate further.

On May 16, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with Hong Kong pro-democracy leader Martin Lee in Washington and expressed concerns about the bill, which the State Department says threatens Hong Kong’s rule of law.

The organizer of Sunday’s protest march claimed 1.03 million people joined the demonstration, while the Hong Kong government put its estimated number at 240,000. The population of the city is about 7.48 million.

https://www.japantim...l/#.XQDcklUzbcs


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#47 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 0727 AM

good for them!


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#48 BansheeOne

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 0613 AM

Standard political damage control: "We haven't explained it well enough".

 

Hong Kong’s Leader, Yielding to Protests, Suspends Extradition Bill

 

By Keith Bradsher and Alexandra Stevenson

 

June 15, 2019

 

HONG KONG — Backing down after days of huge street protests, Hong Kong’s chief executive, Carrie Lam, said on Saturday that she would indefinitely suspend a bill that would allow extraditions to mainland China.

 

It was a remarkable reversal for Mrs. Lam, the leader installed by Beijing in 2017, who had vowed to ensure the bill’s approval and tried to get it passed on an unusually short timetable, even as hundreds of thousands demonstrated against it this past week.

 

But she made it clear that the bill was being delayed, not withdrawn outright, as protesters have demanded.

 

“I believe that we cannot withdraw this bill, or else society will say that this bill was groundless,” Mrs. Lam said at a news conference.

 

She said she felt “sorrow and regret” that she had failed to convince the public that it was needed, and pledged to listen to more views.

 

“We will adopt the most sincere and humble attitude to accept criticisms and make improvements,” Mrs. Lam said.

 

City leaders hope that delaying the legislation will cool public anger and avoid more violence in the streets, said people with detailed knowledge of the government’s plans, including advisers to Mrs. Lam.

 

But leading opposition figures and protesters said a mere suspension of the bill would not satisfy the protesters, who had been planning another large demonstration for Sunday. Organizers confirmed the protest was still on.

 

“Postponement is temporary. It’s just delaying the pain,” said Claudia Mo, a democratic lawmaker. “This is not good enough, simply not right. We demand a complete scrapping of this controversial bill.”

 

“We can’t accept it will just be suspended,” Minnie Li, a lecturer with the Education University of Hong Kong who joined a hunger strike this past week, said on Saturday morning, as word of Mrs. Lam’s plan to suspend the bill was emerging. “We demand it to be withdrawn. The amendment itself is unreasonable. Suspension just means having a break and will continue later. What we want is for it to be withdrawn. We can’t accept it.”

 

But Mrs. Lam and her superiors in Beijing were reluctant to kill the bill outright, said the people familiar with city officials’ thinking. They insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on behalf of the government.

 

A full withdrawal of the legislation would recall the Hong Kong government’s reversals in the face of public objections to other contentious bills that were seen as infringing on the city’s liberties — national security legislation, in 2003, and compulsory patriotic education legislation, in 2012.

 

A team of senior Chinese officials and experts met on Friday with Mrs. Lam in Shenzhen, a mainland Chinese city bordering Hong Kong, to review the situation, one of the people with knowledge of the government’s policymaking said.

 

[...]

 

City officials hope that delaying the bill will weaken the opposition by draining it of its momentum, without giving the appearance that the government was backing down entirely, according to the people familiar with the leaders’ thinking.

 

Asked several times by reporters at the Saturday news conference whether she would resign, as protesters have demanded, Mrs. Lam indicated that she had no plans to do so, saying she would continue her work and improve efforts to communicate with the public. The people familiar with the government’s thinking said officials in both Beijing and Hong Kong had dismissed the calls for Mrs. Lam’s resignation.

 

In statements issued by several official agencies, the Chinese government said it supported, respected and understood Mrs. Lam’s decision to shelve the bill.

 

Underlying opposition to the extradition bill is a growing fear that the freedoms that people in Hong Kong enjoy under the “one country, two systems” policy, put in place when the former British colony was returned to China in 1997, are rapidly shrinking.

 

Emily Lau, a former lawmaker and chairwoman of the city’s Democratic Party, said that she doubted the public would be quelled by the shelving of the bill.

 

“People are asking for the bill to be withdrawn; if you just delay it that means they can just resume the second reading whenever they like,” Ms. Lau said. She added that a suspension would simply result in another big turnout for the march on Sunday.

 

“There is always a sword hanging over our heads, and I don’t think the public will accept it,” she said.

 

https://www.nytimes....dition-law.html

 

June 14, 2019 / 1:16 PM / Updated 7 hours ago

 
Exclusive: Hong Kong police 'trapped in the middle' by polarizing extradition bill
 
 
HONG KONG (Reuters) - Several senior Hong Kong police officials feel caught between a rock and a hard place as city leader Carrie Lam tries to ram through contentious extradition laws that have triggered violent clashes between police and protesters.
 

Police fired tear gas, bean bag rounds and rubber bullets at young protesters who gathered this week around the Chinese-ruled city’s legislature and government headquarters in the tens of thousands.

 

The clashes wounded 22 police and more than 60 protesters, as demonstrators advanced toward the legislature, hurling bricks, iron poles and sticks, while barging their way forward with metal barricades.

 

“We are definitely restrained and we wouldn’t indiscriminately use weapons,” police chief Stephen Lo told reporters a day after the clashes, describing them as a “riot”.

 

“We were facing tens of thousands of protesters. The pressure was very great.”

 

[...]

 

Over one million people, or one in seven people in the city, marched on Sunday against the bill. Less than a day later, however, a stern-faced Lam told reporters she wouldn’t back down.

 

Some senior police officers say Lam’s refusal to heed public opinion is sowing resentment in the force, which was already battered by accusations of police brutality during the 2014 pro-democracy “Umbrella” civil disobedience movement.

 

“There are a significant number that blame her for this crisis,” said a senior law enforcement officer in a command position. “It’s madness.”

 

He said the demands of the protesters weren’t unreasonable, given an inherent mistrust of mainland China’s legal system.

 

“There’s definitely a feeling that we’re trapped in the middle,” said a senior police officer who declined to be named as he wasn’t authorized to speak to the media.

 

“We can’t solve this. The protesters can’t solve this. But Carrie can.”

 

[...]

 

The protesters this time, unified for a very specific goal - to prevent a policy seen as an existential threat to Hong Kong’s unique global position - have pledged not to back down.

 

A hardcore element, numbering in the tens of thousands, has not shied away from violence, while being highly organized and tech savvy, using encrypted phone apps like Telegram to mobilize swiftly through multiple group chats, and more strategically, with less risk of police infiltration.

 

“Telegram is a big breakthrough from the old traditional strategies,” said Jason Chan, a 22-year-old protester. “Since there were no leaders in this movement, Telegram facilitates the communication across protesters by allowing different channels or groups to set up and thereby unite the people.”

 

Another senior law enforcement officer acknowledged greater risks going forward.

 

“The protesters are a lot more determined this time,” he said. “The violence will keep escalating if the government doesn’t back down.”

 

Steve Vickers, a former commander of the police’s Criminal Intelligence Bureau who now runs a risk consultancy, said in a report that there was a risk of further violence.

 

“An unfortunate polarization has occurred, where demonstrators perceive the police to be the enemy (rather than the government, in their absence), and many junior police officers see both the media and protesters as the main protagonists.”

 

https://www.reuters....l-idUSKCN1TF1BU


Edited by BansheeOne, 15 June 2019 - 0656 AM.

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#49 JasonJ

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 0659 AM

HKPF on break

HKPF.jpg


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#50 seahawk

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 0713 AM

Sent in tanks, crush the liberal opposition.


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#51 JasonJ

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 0810 AM

The English language forums with the many Pro-CCP posters got banned in China. Pakistan-China relations discussion go through the rounds. Interesting thread.

https://defence.pk/p...ina-why.623232/


Edited by JasonJ, 15 June 2019 - 0811 AM.

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#52 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 0923 AM

China is all the bad things that people accuse Russia of being.

It does appear that the protesters have won a brief reprieve.  I am happy for their success


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#53 Ssnake

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 1135 AM

They will try it again. Ms Lam is still of the opinion that she only failed to explain the law better. Not the problem, Ms Lam. The world understand the intent of the law perfectly fine. Including all the business people of Hong Kong who realized that investigating fraudulent accounting practices of State Chinese holdingd listed at the HK Stock Exchange is no longer purely a service for investors. The development of the exchange rate of the HK Dollar illustrates what businesses think of the quality of this law.


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#54 Nobu

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 1215 PM

I am surprised that the government decided to suspend the bill indefinitely, as it represents a level of flexibility previously unseen.

 

Chinese-on-Chinese discord, disunity, and violence has historically also been a source of opportunity in various ways. 


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#55 JasonJ

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 0050 AM

I am surprised that the government decided to suspend the bill indefinitely, as it represents a level of flexibility previously unseen.

 

Chinese-on-Chinese discord, disunity, and violence has historically also been a source of opportunity in various ways. 

 

its Hong Kong, not PRC. As pointed out before, Hong Kong does have elections for the legislature. And there is greater freedom for speech, books, and such, than on the mainland. Forgetting the good cards in hand is the same as not having good cards at all and so consequently plus for the CCP.

 

Among all the talk that the young HKer was saying, one point was the rise in consciousnesses among the HKers about PRC control infiltrating maneuvers. Around 30% of the people that went on the demonstrations this past week did so for the first time. Thus the number of people exceeded the time during the umbrella movement in 2014 by about that much. And as indicated in the 2016 legislature elections, the number of seats by Pro-Beijing parties deceased while pro-democratic/localizers increased. One major leg up that the Pro-Beijing camp has in HK politics is that the HK Chief Executive, Carrie Lam,  is Pro-Beijing. The Chief Executive is elected by special committee made up of 1,200 people. So in that committee, it can be imagined that lots of business interests people have a say and if they want economic workings with PRC, they may have to give some ground, although I don't know so much in detail on the committee makeup. But the legislature is direct election by all HKers. Next legislature election is 2020.


Edited by JasonJ, 16 June 2019 - 0056 AM.

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#56 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 0932 AM

What ever happened to that Interpol executive that went back to China, anyway?


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#57 Nobu

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 1600 PM

The reaction of the rest of Asia to the spectacle of Chinese at each other's throats appears to be lukewarm at best. My preference would be for Chinese-on-Chinese discord and violence regarding self-determination to be allowed to go on in perpetuity, as long as it does not spread to places such as Okinawa.


Edited by Nobu, 17 June 2019 - 1601 PM.

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#58 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 1145 AM

turns out the Chinese government has been holding the missing Interpol guy.  They have the usual charges and confessions.

All because he wouldn't make Interpol an arm of the Chinese gov't.


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#59 Ssnake

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 1743 PM

Yeah, he was just mentioned in today's newspaper. They found "evidence". He "confessed".


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#60 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 0927 AM

it is interesting to me that the Chinese don't believe that the rest of the world sees a pattern in their activities.

It's like the old North Korean propaganda when they had panache.  All that about "running dogs of capitalism" stuff.

I'll bet I could write the article about the detention of the dissident without reading the actual statement from China and mirror it perfectly


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