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Is There A Specific Reason The French Army Didn't Adopt The Famas G2?


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#21 shep854

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 0915 AM

 

I think it's been discussed elsewhere, but why did France move away from bullpups? The Aussis F90 seems to have everything needed for modern optics and accessories.

 

It's not obvious they intended to. One bullpup was tested.

 

Yet they went with the H&K AR pattern.


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#22 Loopycrank

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 0922 AM

Old FAMAS F1 were re-barreled by Beretta to 1 in 7 twist so they could use newer NATO ammo.  They were never changed to use AR-15 pattern magazines, however, as that would entail replacing quite a bit of plastic.  It's a shame; the original 25 round magazines were not robust and were re-used long beyond their useful life.  A rifle is only as reliable as the magazines feeding it.


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#23 shep854

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 1006 AM

Old FAMAS F1 were re-barreled by Beretta to 1 in 7 twist so they could use newer NATO ammo.  They were never changed to use AR-15 pattern magazines, however, as that would entail replacing quite a bit of plastic.  It's a shame; the original 25 round magazines were not robust and were re-used long beyond their useful life.  A rifle is only as reliable as the magazines feeding it.

Also a problem with aluminum mags.  In fact, that's a selling point for Magpul mags; when they go bad they break, so they must be discarded.  The aluminum mags (which were originally conceived to be one-use) just become unreliable but the problem may not be easily seen, so they tend to remain in the inventory.  Woe to the soldier who smashes a worn-out mag--destruction of gov't property!! :glare:


Edited by shep854, 27 January 2018 - 1008 AM.

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#24 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 1252 PM

Had they decided in advance not to adopt a bullpup, it seems unlikely they would have included one in the testing.
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#25 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 1319 PM

Old FAMAS F1 were re-barreled by Beretta to 1 in 7 twist so they could use newer NATO ammo.  They were never changed to use AR-15 pattern magazines, however, as that would entail replacing quite a bit of plastic.  It's a shame; the original 25 round magazines were not robust and were re-used long beyond their useful life.  A rifle is only as reliable as the magazines feeding it.

 

I've read at least once that the original design spec called for disposable magazines (a world first?).  Re-using the magazine in this case would have certainly caused reliability problems with feed and material fatigue.


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#26 2805662

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 0038 AM

I think it's been discussed elsewhere, but why did France move away from bullpups? The Aussis F90 seems to have everything needed for modern optics and accessories.


The EF88 (in-service name for the commercial F90) has some pretty significant defects, hence the upgrades to the upgrade program.

Examples:
3 oclock rail is set so far from the muzzle that the receiver and barrel shadow lights and lasers mounted there.
Lightening the receiver has increased heat transfer to rail mounted optics and accessories.
Fixed length of pull.
On it goes.

The shortcomings of the base platform has necessitated the funding of:
Rail Extension Sub-System (new fore end)
Case Deflection Sub-System (dodgy ambidextrous firing)
Suppressor Sub-System (appliqué suppression has proved very troublesome & accentuated the heat-transfer problem).

These requirements were conceived in 2015: before the initial fielding of production weapons had occurred.
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#27 Simon Tan

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 0220 AM

The 10000 monkeys approach is why AR is so dominant. AKs are largely thanks to cold war stockpiles.
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#28 chino

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 1238 PM

If the French had intended to stay with the bullpup platform they would've chosen 4 bullpups & one conventional, instead of the other way around.

 

HK 416

ARX160

MCX

SCAR

VHS2

 

The question is why they didn't bother with the G2 or the Tavor, the Steyr, SA80... bullpup platforms already adopted as standard by other armed forces, and with actual combat track record.


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#29 bojan

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 1627 PM

FAMAS G2 - no factory to make it

Tavor - political no-go

SA-80 - aka shitsendwitch - none sane would


Edited by bojan, 18 February 2018 - 1627 PM.

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#30 Simon Tan

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 0459 AM

You all forget the SAR21 and the AUG!
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#31 Chris Werb

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 0553 AM

The SA80 production facility was demolished and everything sold off c 20 years ago. I guess H&K could make more at a push, but it would be pointless. I saw an FOI request response that A3 conversions were costing c £1000 per rifle.
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#32 lastdingo

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 0933 AM

 

I think it's been discussed elsewhere, but why did France move away from bullpups? The Aussis F90 seems to have everything needed for modern optics and accessories.

The EF88 (in-service name for the commercial F90) has some pretty significant defects, hence the upgrades to the upgrade program.

Examples:
3 oclock rail is set so far from the muzzle that the receiver and barrel shadow lights and lasers mounted there.
Lightening the receiver has increased heat transfer to rail mounted optics and accessories.
Fixed length of pull.
On it goes.

(...)

 

 

I sense some nonsense there.

 

Barrel shadow in laser light? Not physically possible unless the laser is utterly misaligned and thus useless anyway.

 

"Lightening the receiver has increased heat transfer"? Another physics nonsense. A lightened receiver may have less capacity to store thermal energy, but it's de facto guaranteed to be less of a conductor of thermal energy than the heavier one, especially as there was no move from plastic to metal as material.

 

Not sure how "Fixed length of pull" qualifies as a problem or downside.


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#33 2805662

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 0327 AM

User feedback and verified and documented issues are nonsense, hey?

The shadow is for the light part of the laser module (PEQ-16).

Fixed length of pull is poor ergonomics- adjusting the length of pull accounts for different sized soldiers, and also shooting with of without body armour. If it wasnt an issue, why is it a requirement in every other long arm for the ADF?

Edited by 2805662, 25 February 2018 - 0328 AM.

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#34 lastdingo

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 0356 AM

You didn't push some official documents here - you chose your own words.

 

The mention of laser and heat transfer was physics nonsense. Physics is a set of nature's laws that trump your choice of words and it would also trump whatever official documents might mention those points.

You could have omitted the misleading mentioning of laser and that part would have been fine.

 

Fixed length of pull - maybe I'm old-fashioned. I never experienced anyone complaining about that when we used assault rifles with fixed pull.

AfFAIK fixed length of pull is mostly an issue for when the 2nd hand is behind the trigger and may appear in the field of view. Bullpups have a front grip for the 2nd hand.


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#35 2805662

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 0526 AM

Heat transfer - heat from firing heats the barrel, the first six inches of which is in direct contact with the uppermost rail, which heats up excessively. Why excessively? Optics fitted during trial - that had no issues when fitted to other rifles - were damaged by the heat. If its not heat transfer, please provide the correct terminology.

I said lights and lasers. Youre right, I should have specified, the PEQ-16. The rail is so far rearward that there is a rail extension sub system being developed to fit the light (as a separate system) farther forward.

Have you ever used a rifle while wearing body armour? Worn different body armour types over the life of the rifle? Or watched the 152cm tall female soldier, wearing body armour, trying to qualify during an advanced shoot, struggle with a fixed LOP? The EF88 doesnt have a forward grip integral.

The EF88 Is rubbish. They took an AUG, already borderline for the second decade of this century, and designed out all the good bits.

Edited by 2805662, 25 February 2018 - 0527 AM.

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#36 lastdingo

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 0601 AM

Heat transfer - heat from firing heats the barrel, the first six inches of which is in direct contact with the uppermost rail, which heats up excessively. Why excessively? Optics fitted during trial - that had no issues when fitted to other rifles - were damaged by the heat. If its not heat transfer, please provide the correct terminology.

I said lights and lasers. Youre right, I should have specified, the PEQ-16. The rail is so far rearward that there is a rail extension sub system being developed to fit the light (as a separate system) farther forward.

Have you ever used a rifle while wearing body armour? Worn different body armour types over the life of the rifle? Or watched the 152cm tall female soldier, wearing body armour, trying to qualify during an advanced shoot, struggle with a fixed LOP? The EF88 doesnt have a forward grip integral.

The EF88 Is rubbish. They took an AUG, already borderline for the second decade of this century, and designed out all the good bits.

 

I already mentioned that it cannot be about heat transfer. The thinner (lighter) you make the parts, the less heat gets transferred through them per time. That's physics.

Smaller and lighter parts may lead to heat troubles because of less capacity to store thermal energy (being smaller heat sinks), which is an altogether different characteristic.

 

The EF88 has a handguard that serves as forward grip and many infantrymen will have UBGL mounted. Either way - the 2nd hand is practically never going to be behind the sights (unless there's a good rest for the gun), so at least the field of view argument against fixed length of pull doesn't matter.

I'm no fan of hard body armour, so honestly I don't care about ergonomics with hard body armour. I know shooting with soft body armour and I saw people of sizes ranging from 165 to 206 cm shoot well with fixed length of pull rifles. There were almost no variable length of pull assault rifles in service until the 1980's.

And seriously, 152 cm short people would be worthless in battle anyway if they wear much body armour. I don't care about comfort on peacetime shooting ranges.

 

What strikes me is that you call the EF88 "rubbish" even though it has admirably low weight and I've yet to hear any bad remarks about its reliability.


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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 0957 AM

For what it's worth, in their "What would Stoner do?" project, the team at In Range TV concluded that an M16A1 length stock really does fit all, body armour or not. Youtube Discussion here:


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#38 shep854

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 1116 AM

For what it's worth, in their "What would Stoner do?" project, the team at In Range TV concluded that an M16A1 length stock really does fit all, body armour or not. Youtube Discussion here:

Which also seems to be pretty close to the AK Warsaw Pact stock length. Im just over 6ft tall, and I dont have a problem with it.
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#39 Chris Werb

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 1206 PM

 

For what it's worth, in their "What would Stoner do?" project, the team at In Range TV concluded that an M16A1 length stock really does fit all, body armour or not. Youtube Discussion here:

Which also seems to be pretty close to the AK Warsaw Pact stock length. Im just over 6ft tall, and I dont have a problem with it.

 

 

The Russians, however, are putting adjustable length stocks on most shoulder arms these days. For example: https://modernfirear...uns/rpk-16-eng/


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#40 shep854

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 1323 PM

With all the Gucci-ness going around, one starts to wonder where function ends and cool begins...


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