Jump to content


Photo

Smaller NATO Armies Of The 1980s


  • Please log in to reply
161 replies to this topic

#41 RETAC21

RETAC21

    A la lealtad y al valor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madrid, Spain
  • Interests:Military history in general

Posted 10 December 2005 - 1512 PM

As for the Air Farce, as far as I know the only SAMs they got are the Mistral which was bought in the 90s, if any. I am not really sure.
  • 0

#42 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 10 December 2005 - 1753 PM

RETAC, don't forget that III Tercio [2 Banderas] was transferred from Fuerteventura to form the basis of the Legion Bde. IV Tercio remains at Ronda [lucky devils!] with no Banderas under operational control, since X belongs to the BRILEG and BOEL to the FAR.
  • 0

#43 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 10 December 2005 - 1755 PM

As for the Air Farce, as far as I know the only SAMs they got are the Mistral which was bought in the 90s, if any. I am not really sure.

View Post

Uh, I think Mistral is in the army and it also has I-HAWK?

[edit to add, they finally broke from the LW model here]

Edited by Ken Estes, 10 December 2005 - 1757 PM.

  • 0

#44 RETAC21

RETAC21

    A la lealtad y al valor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madrid, Spain
  • Interests:Military history in general

Posted 11 December 2005 - 1401 PM

RETAC, don't forget that III Tercio [2 Banderas] was transferred from Fuerteventura to form the basis of the Legion Bde. IV Tercio remains at Ronda [lucky devils!] with no Banderas under operational control, since X belongs to the BRILEG and BOEL to the FAR.

View Post


Noted, however, the BOEL ended up in the MOE (Mando de Operaciones Especiales, Special Ops Command) as the XIX GOE "Maderal Oleaga", and from there to the FAR.

The Air Force operates twin Mistral launchers (the Atlas) in the EADA (Escuadron de Apoyo al Despliegue Aereo, Air Deployment Support Squadron), but this unit was created in the 90s. The other Air Force combat unit is the EZAPAC (Escuadrilla de Zapadores Paracaidistas, Paratroop Sapper Squadron, a pathfinder unit). All other SAMs belong to the Army.
  • 0

#45 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,254 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 11 December 2005 - 1817 PM

Uh, I think Mistral is in the army and it also has I-HAWK?


They bought NASAMS II a couple of years ago in exchange for choosing some Spanish designed warships.

http://www.kongsberg...ircraft/NASAMS/

http://www.gbad.org/...t_20051029.html
  • 0

#46 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 11 December 2005 - 1906 PM

Noted, however, the BOEL ended up in the MOE (Mando de Operaciones Especiales, Special Ops Command) as the XIX GOE "Maderal Oleaga", and from there to the FAR.


View Post

Yes that was a nice piece of lineage work; you will remember they thought of calling BOEL the XIII Bandera, but it was never made official and XIX makes it the next in progression after the 18 ones raised in the civil war.
  • 0

#47 RETAC21

RETAC21

    A la lealtad y al valor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madrid, Spain
  • Interests:Military history in general

Posted 12 December 2005 - 0340 AM

They bought NASAMS II a couple of years ago in exchange for choosing some Spanish designed warships.

http://www.kongsberg...ircraft/NASAMS/

http://www.gbad.org/...t_20051029.html

View Post


Those went to the Army too, they are deployed in the Canaries.
  • 0

#48 RETAC21

RETAC21

    A la lealtad y al valor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madrid, Spain
  • Interests:Military history in general

Posted 12 December 2005 - 0341 AM

Yes that was a nice piece of lineage work; you will remember they thought of calling BOEL the XIII Bandera, but it was never made official and XIX makes it the next in progression after the 18 ones raised in the civil war.

View Post


Didn't know that. Thanks.
  • 0

#49 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 13 December 2005 - 0815 AM

OK --

One more question for our Canadian members --

Would I be correct in thinkin that around 1989, the only Canadian-based Leo C1 unit would have been a squadron at Gagetown?

Thanks

Pat

PS I am working to incorporate all recommended changes plus a bit of other research in an amended first draft, which I will post here in the next few days.
  • 0

#50 R011

R011

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,645 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted 13 December 2005 - 1002 AM

Would I be correct in thinkin that around 1989, the only Canadian-based Leo C1 unit would have been a squadron at Gagetown?

View Post

Yes
  • 0

#51 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,254 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 13 December 2005 - 1051 AM

Those went to the Army too, they are deployed in the Canaries.

View Post


Is that just a historical accident, or due to availability of a range there, or are the Canaries seen as under specific threat?
  • 0

#52 RETAC21

RETAC21

    A la lealtad y al valor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,547 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Madrid, Spain
  • Interests:Military history in general

Posted 13 December 2005 - 1155 AM

Is that just a historical accident, or due to availability of a range there, or are the Canaries seen as under specific threat?

View Post


The perceived threat is Morocco, which claims the Canaries together with Ceuta and Melilla plus small islets off their coast. The Canaries are defended mainly by Air assets in the form of a squadron of F-18s, while Ceuta and Melilla have significant garrisons in place, now undermanned, but theoretically equivalent to a Brigade, both of which can be quickly reinforced from units based in the Peninsula.
  • 0

#53 Hellfish6

Hellfish6

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,679 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 December 2005 - 1211 PM

D'oh... reading makes me smarter. :rolleyes:

Edited by Hellfish6, 13 December 2005 - 1212 PM.

  • 0

#54 George Wallace

George Wallace

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OTTAWA ON CAN

Posted 14 December 2005 - 0808 AM

This might be of some use:

Andy Johnson's NATO OOB 1989

View Post

Had a look at his Canadian 'numbers' and some of them are ROTL. He has the total Cdn number of Leopards as being approx twice what they really are/were. As was pointed out, there was only a Sqn of 19 Leos in Gagetown, Canada, belonging to the RCD (prior to 1987) then 8 CH who were in Germany (These two units did a Rotation ). There were also a few Gunnery tanks (6 ?) at the Gunnery Sqn and a four Driver Trainers at the D&M Sqn of the Armour School. Canada at this time had only 128 Leopards, which included ARVs, amd the Biber AVLBs and Badger Engineer Vehicles of the Engineers.

Sorry, R011 has already covered most of this. :unsure:

Edited by George Wallace, 14 December 2005 - 0816 AM.

  • 0

#55 George Wallace

George Wallace

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OTTAWA ON CAN

Posted 14 December 2005 - 0814 AM

Three squadrons of nineteen plus two in the RHQ for as total of 59.

Per squadron: four troops of four, the Officer Commanding the squadron, the Battle Captain, and a dozer tank. There was also a Leopard ARV per squadron, a Lynx for a liasion officer, five or six M113A1 APC's, and four or five M548A1.

View Post

To add to R011s comment, there were 59 in the Armour Unit (RCD, later 8 CH) and then 18 to 20 in long term preservation as War Reserve in Lahr, which would be periodically rotated through the unit to keep Milages and Wear equalized through the fleet.

Edited by George Wallace, 14 December 2005 - 0815 AM.

  • 0

#56 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 14 December 2005 - 1012 AM

To add to R011s comment, there were 59 in the Armour Unit (RCD, later 8 CH) and then 18 to 20 in long term preservation as War Reserve in Lahr, which would be periodically rotated through the unit to keep Milages and Wear equalized through the fleet.

View Post


Thanks, George.

Offhand, Do you know which battalions in Canada were mounted in M113s and which in AVGP in the late 1980s?

Thanks,

Pat Callahan
  • 0

#57 George Wallace

George Wallace

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OTTAWA ON CAN

Posted 14 December 2005 - 1357 PM

Offhand, Do you know which battalions in Canada were mounted in M113s and which in AVGP in the late 1980s?

View Post

If I remember correctly, in the Inf Regts, the 'Mech' Infantry Bns were still in M113s, then at least one of their Bns were mounted in AVGP Grizzlies. For a while in the Late '80s/early '90s the Inf Regts were reduced to two Bns.

The Three Armd Regts had two Sqns of 19 AVGP Cougars each and then Recce Sqns with M113 C&R Lynx. With the closure of CFE and the return of the Bde to Canada, each Armd Reg't gained a Sqn of 19 Leopard C1s.

It wasn't until a couple of years ago that the Inf Mech Bns moved to LAV III. The Light Infantry Bns for the most part are doing without, but do have BV 206s.

The Armd Regiments have been reduced by one. The 8 CH are now a Reserve Regt. The Remaining three had two Sqns of Coyote (Upgraded versions of the LAV 25 with Surv Suites) and one Tank Sqn. In 2003 all Leopard C2 tanks started to be moved to the LdSH (RC) in Wainwright to be used by them until the MSG arrives. They will become a DFU Regt, with MGS, MMEV, and TOW.

Once again the CF is in transition. Coy and Sqn formations are disappearing and reappearing every five or six years it seems.

As a Side Note, until recently most CPs were M577 Queen Mary's, most Tank formations were supported by M548s, and most Mechs and fitters were also in M113s. Most Sgt Majors had M113s. There were also M113 Engr varients in the Recce Sqns, with four making up the Assault Troop.
  • 0

#58 Hellfish6

Hellfish6

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,679 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 December 2005 - 2058 PM

I look forward to seeing your updates!
  • 0

#59 V42

V42

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts

Posted 14 December 2005 - 2332 PM

I think most texts of the time seemed to count Canadian Tanks and even units several times in different ways.
  • 0

#60 Hans Strelow

Hans Strelow

    Mir wlle bleiwe, wat mir sinn.

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Location:The best country in the world.
  • Interests:WWW (Women, Whiskey, War)

Posted 16 December 2005 - 0710 AM

Everything you ever wanted to know about the main pillar of NATO in it's defence of the free world - but where to afraid to ask.

http://www.nat-milit...urgarmy.html#6A

Cheers

Hans
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users