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NATO OOB 1989


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#1 PCallahan

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0659 AM

All right -- I have completed a massive round of updating of the NATO 1989 OOB. Included in this update:

Overall, document is now about 20 pages longer than last update:
Vast rework of USAF assets
USMC air assets listed, some ground units updated
US Navy air assets + carrier assignments listed
UK, Greek, Turkish listings expanded, edited
Finland, Ireland, Switzerland added and/or updated
Minor updates to most other listings based on feedback, new research
Probably a lot more that I simply don't remember at this time.

The UK non-BAOR units remain a concern -- more info is in there, but accuracy problems persist. Any help with it would be greatly appreciated.

Additionally, Norwegian OOB needs work, along with Finnish OOB, which is fairly skeletal.

I am also still looking for accurate non-divisional info on USMC ground units (artillery, air defense, tank, etc)

As of now, there is no section on Yugoslavia; that nation's military appears to have been transitioning from a division to brigade structure in 1988-89, and was heavily in flux. Any reasonably accurate information would be greatly appreciated.

This is a work in progress, and any additional information or comments would be greatly appreciated.

The full document can be found here:
NATO OOB New Version
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#2 Dave Clark

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0714 AM

Finland, Ireland, Switzerland and Yugoslavia have never been members of NATO!
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#3 KingSargent

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0721 AM

Finland, Ireland, Switzerland and Yugoslavia have never been members of NATO!

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Picky, picky...

I am glad that someone is including them, I hate OOBs that just have what is easily found or what some compiler considers important. Having a full OOB for Europe, whether NATO or not, is very interesting.
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#4 DemolitionMan

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0743 AM

A minor correction: On Page 59, Section b. The 74th Panzer Batallion had Leopard 1, not Leopard 2.
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#5 PCallahan

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0754 AM

A minor correction: On Page 59, Section b. The 74th Panzer Batallion had Leopard 1, not Leopard 2.

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Thanks -- do you know what type?
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#6 DemolitionMan

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0829 AM

Thanks -- do you know what type?

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They changed to Leopard 1 A5 in 1989.
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#7 PCallahan

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 0857 AM

They changed to Leopard 1 A5 in 1989.

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Thanks. I'll get it in the next version.

Pat
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#8 SILL2

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 2212 PM

Regarding 9ID (MTZ) obviously continual transition during the late 80s. I was a Inf Lt 86-89 in 9ID, in 1989 with Div G3.

During the MTZ phase 2-60 (my 1st/old BN), 3-47, 2-1 always constititued 3rd Bde. Even after 2nd Bde went out of business in early 1988 we were still 3rd Bde. Semantics perhaps but to be accurate.

During early spring of 89 39SIB (Seperate Inf Bde) of Arkansas NG was assigned to us as a roundout unit. I was G3 Training and did the Div CPX planning for integrating them into our OPLANS for Europe (LANDJUT). Flew the entire 39SIB staff out to Lewis for field (North Fort parade ground) CPX. I do not remember if we worked them in Korea OPLANS or not. Certainly (and primarily) for Europe. Straight leg Inf Bde as I recall J-series MTOE. In my observation pretty serious about the business and competent.

I don't recall the details at the moment but in the 1988-89 period 81st Bde (AR Wa NG) went back and forth as a I Corps vs 9Id asset. They played in all our Div CPX but primarily regarded as a Korea asset due to the huge difference in deployability vs the rest of the Div (including 39SIB). The idea being 9ID MTZ would fly into N Germany to reinf LANDJUT.
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#9 PCallahan

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 0356 AM

Regarding 9ID (MTZ)  obviously continual transition during the late 80s.  I was a Inf Lt 86-89 in 9ID, in 1989 with Div G3.

During the MTZ phase 2-60 (my 1st/old BN), 3-47, 2-1 always constititued 3rd Bde.  Even after 2nd Bde went out of business in early 1988 we were still 3rd Bde.  Semantics perhaps but to be accurate.

During early spring of 89 39SIB (Seperate Inf Bde) of Arkansas NG was assigned to us as a roundout unit.  I was G3 Training and did the Div CPX planning for integrating them into our OPLANS for Europe (LANDJUT).  Flew the entire 39SIB staff out to Lewis for field (North Fort parade ground) CPX.  I do not remember if we worked them in Korea OPLANS or not.  Certainly (and primarily) for Europe.  Straight leg Inf Bde as I recall J-series MTOE.  In my observation pretty serious about the business and competent.

I don't recall the details at the moment but in the 1988-89 period 81st Bde (AR Wa NG) went back and forth as a I Corps vs 9Id asset.  They played in all our Div CPX but primarily regarded as a Korea asset due to the huge difference in deployability vs the rest of the Div (including 39SIB).  The idea being 9ID MTZ would fly into N Germany to reinf LANDJUT.

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Thanks, Sill, great info. What was the battalion-level org for the division during this time? Was it still the mix of light and heavy attack and combined arms battalions? Was 1-33rd Armor still with you? What were divisional-level assets?

Sorry to badger you with so many questions, but you have to talk the opportunity to actually get info when you have the chance.

Thanks

Pat Callahan
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#10 pi

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 0501 AM

How big would the late '80's West German Army have been when fully mobilized? some sources I've seen say around 900 000+ while others say 1.1 million.
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#11 DemolitionMan

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 0557 AM

In 1988 the german army had 332.000 soldiers on active duty and 716.000 soldiers in reserve.
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#12 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 0641 AM

Some notes on Spain:

The only M48 variant in service in 1989 was the M48A5E2 (AVDS17902C diesel engine, 105mm gun, passive night sights, Hughes Mk7 FCS with LRF, no stab)
RIMZ 10 only had 45 M47E2. No more vehicles were made!
BELHTRA V operated CH47C
BELHA I operated a mix of BO105LOH, BO105GSH (20mm gun) and 28 BO105ATH (with six HOT1/2 missiles)
Standar "light observation helicopter" was the BO105LOH, with the "medum transport" the UH-1H
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#13 PCallahan

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 0658 AM

Some notes on Spain:

The only M48 variant in service in 1989 was the M48A5E2 (AVDS17902C diesel engine, 105mm gun, passive night sights, Hughes Mk7 FCS with LRF, no stab)
RIMZ 10 only had 45 M47E2. No more vehicles were made!
BELHTRA V operated CH47C
BELHA I operated a mix of BO105LOH, BO105GSH (20mm gun) and 28 BO105ATH (with six HOT1/2 missiles)
Standar "light observation helicopter" was the BO105LOH, with the "medum transport" the UH-1H

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Thanks, great info.

I have several more questions, which you may or may not have any info on:
Do you have any details of armored trucks used by Spain in the motorized infantry battalions?
Any decent reference to the organization of the Mountain brigades and battalions?

I appreciate it,

Pat

Edited by PCallahan, 13 April 2006 - 0842 AM.

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#14 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 0851 AM

Do you have any details of armored trucks used by Spain in the motorized infantry battalions?

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The only "armored truck" I know of since the retirement of the C15-TA in the 70s is the BMR600 APC which was indeed used by the motorized infantry battalions.
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#15 Hellfish6

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 1202 PM

I might have a reference for Spanish mountain units at home - I'll check it out. It might be from an old wargame though, if that invalidates anything.
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#16 PCallahan

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 1356 PM

I might have a reference for Spanish mountain units at home - I'll check it out. It might be from an old wargame though, if that invalidates anything.

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It doesn't; many of the sources used are wargame-derived.

Thanks

Pat
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#17 11E

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 1449 PM

All right -- I have completed a massive round of updating of the NATO 1989 OOB.  Included in this update:

Overall, document is now about 20 pages longer than last update:
Vast rework of USAF assets
USMC air assets listed, some ground units updated
US Navy air assets + carrier assignments listed
UK, Greek, Turkish listings expanded, edited
Finland, Ireland, Switzerland added and/or updated
Minor updates to most other listings based on feedback, new research
Probably a lot more that I simply don't remember at this time.

The UK non-BAOR units remain a concern -- more info is in there, but accuracy problems persist.  Any help with it would be greatly appreciated.

Additionally, Norwegian OOB needs work, along with Finnish OOB, which is fairly skeletal. 

I am also still looking for accurate non-divisional info on USMC ground units (artillery, air defense, tank, etc)

As of now, there is no section on Yugoslavia; that nation's military appears to have been transitioning from a division to brigade structure in 1988-89, and was heavily in flux.  Any reasonably accurate information would be greatly appreciated.

This is a work in progress, and any additional information or comments would be greatly appreciated.

The full document can be found here:
NATO OOB New Version

View Post


Hello,

49 Armoured battalion never existed with Leopards, I'am very interested were this come from.

58 Tankbattalion (reserve) Leopard 1V (disbanded 1.1.1994)

Netherlands never had Gepard SPAAG, but PRTL (different radar systems)
Nr.300 squadron, never at the Kooy (is a naval air station with Lynx helicopters)
N3.306 squaron, RF-16 is not an official designation. Just a recce pod underneath the centreline station

Each airbase (Volkel, De Peel, Leeuwarden, Gilze Rijen, Twente, Soesterberg, Eindhoven) had its own Hawk and 40L70 squadron. The one at Soesterberg was 221 Squadron.

The Neth.navy had also P-3C Orion and Lynx helicopters

PORTUGAL
Air force had G.91R3 and G.91R4

TURKEY
NOT F-4C Phantoms but F-4E Phantoms, only Spain operated the ''C'' model
Never had any G91 aircraft

Regards
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#18 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 1521 PM

[quote name='11E' date='Thu 13 Apr 2006 1949']PORTUGAL
Air force had G.91R3 and G.91R4[/quote]

Also missing are the Portuguese AF Puma helicopters, a fair number of them are still in service with Sq 711 (Montijo) and 751 (Lajes)

Other Portuguese AC missing:

Reims-Cessna 337 Skymaster: Sq 502 (Sintra)
CASA C-212 100: Sq 401 (Sintra), 502 (Sintra), 711 (Lajes)
CASA C-212-300 (with radar nose): Sq 401 (Sintra)
Lockheed C-130H: Sq 501 (Montijo)
Lockheed P-3P Orion: All six operation in 1989 with Sq 601 (Montijo)

Plus the Spanish 22 Wing, based in 1989 at Jerez AB and equipped with five P-3B HW and three P-3A DELTIC Orions.

Spanish Marines operated M48A3E, the M60A3TTS was not delivered until 1993.
[/quote]
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#19 RETAC21

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 1521 PM

The only "armored truck" I know of since the retirement of the C15-TA in the 70s is the BMR600 APC which was indeed used by the motorized infantry battalions.

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Nope, motorized (or to be exact, motorisable, BIMT) battalions only had trucks. Battalions that had any kind of APC (M113 or BMR, BIMZ) were mecanised.
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#20 Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 1534 PM

Nope, motorized (or to be exact, motorisable, BIMT) battalions only had trucks. Battalions that had any kind of APC (M113 or BMR, BIMZ) were mecanised.

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Ups! I messed "Mechanized" and "Motorized". So them it should be Pegaso 3045, 3046 and 3050 plus older M35 series from various makers......

[Edit]: I forgot to mention that besides the M47E2 in service with BRIMZ 10, all the remaining M47s were M47E1 (diesel engine, 90mm gun)

Edited by Gorka L. Martinez-Mezo, 13 April 2006 - 1549 PM.

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