Jump to content


Photo

NATO OOB Mk VII


  • Please log in to reply
804 replies to this topic

#21 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 26 March 2007 - 0659 AM

Canadian Reserve Regiments


Thanks, Munster. Good stuff.

A couple questions -- on the Dutch, is it correct that much of the 5th Division lacks artillery battalions?

On the Canadians, with the Engineers, are the squadrons listed at the end independent or subsidiary to the above regiments?

Thanks,

Pat
  • 0

#22 major66

major66

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 273 posts

Posted 26 March 2007 - 0816 AM

The gaping hole here remains the French OOB -- it still remains mostly the same as that of the original document, although it has been expanded upon.


Here is something on the French OOB:

The correct composition of the 7th Armored Division (7ème Division Blindée) at Besancon is as following:

1er Régiment de Dragons (Lure)
5ème Régiment de Dragons (Valdahon)
3ème Régiment de Cuirassiers (Chenevières) -since July 1, 1985-
35ème Régiment d'Infanterie (Belfort)
170ème Régiment d'Infanterie (Epinal)
30éme Groupe de Chasseurs (Luneville) -since July 1, 1985-
1er Régiment d'Artillerie (Montbéliard)
60ème Régiment d'Artillerie (Canjuers) -since July 1, 1984- *reserve unit
19ème Régiment du Génie (Besancon)
7ème Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (Besancon)
Escadron d'Eclairage Divisionnaire (Valdahon)

Information comes from the history of the french garrison Besancon.

In 1988 the french 5th Armored Division (Landau, GE) had the following units:

2 Régiment de Cuirassiers (Reutlingen, GE)
4 Régiment de Cuirassiers (Bitche, FR)
5 Régiment de Cuirassiers (Kaiserslautern, GE)
2 Groupe de Chasseurs (Neustadt, GE)
24 Groupe de Chasseurs (Tübingen, GE)
152 Régiment d'Infanterie (Colmar, FR)
2 Régiment d'Artillerie (Landau, GE)
24 Régiment d'Artillerie (Reutlingen, GE)
10 Régiment d'Génie (Spire, FR)
5 Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (Landau, GE)
Escadron d'Eclairage Divisionnaire (Landau)

A few other comments:

The light armored regiment of the 3rd French Corps was the 2 Régiment de Hussards (AMX10RC)

The light armored regiment (4 Régiment de Chasseurs located at Gap, FR) of the french 27° Division Alpine had 3 escadrons with 12 AML 90 each (4 platoons a' 3 AML) and one anti-tank escadron with Jeeps / MILAN. In 1990 the AML 90 were replaced by ERC 90 SAGAIE.

Something on the teritorrial forces:

In the Military Region of Lille there were 3 Régiments interarmes divisionnaires (R.I.A.D.)

54ème R.I.A.D (Noyon)
239ème R.I.A.D. (Rouen)
243ème R.I.A.D. (Lille)

The light armored company of each of this regiments was a company of 5eme Régiment Hussards.
As far as I know the R.I.A.D. were dissolved at the end of 1992.

I hope that helps !

/major66
  • 0

#23 munster

munster

    Crunchie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 32 posts

Posted 26 March 2007 - 1231 PM

On the Dutch units I thinks the 51 AfdVa,52 AfdVA or 53 AfdVA were assigned to the 5th Division but I need confirmation on that
Im also trying to work out the engineer units of the Dutch army
On the Canadian units the engineer squadrons at the end were independent squadrons assigned to local brigades
Im also working out on some more info on us army support units and aviation units

greetings Munster
  • 0

#24 Brummbaer

Brummbaer

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 203 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy
  • Interests:Mainly WW2, Arab-Israeli wars, many other random interests. Tanks, guns, ships, flying stuff at alternate phases. Wargaming.

Posted 26 March 2007 - 1253 PM

About French: I have the Strategy&Tactics game "Donau Front" which portrays the french divisions organization and equipment. I can post it if useful.
  • 0

#25 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 26 March 2007 - 1424 PM

About French: I have the Strategy&Tactics game "Donau Front" which portrays the french divisions organization and equipment. I can post it if useful.


I have it too -- the OOBs I believe come straight from Armies of NATOs Central Front, and despite the game's futuristic timeline, actually represents about 1984. Great game, though -- it was that game (and Red Storm Rising) that really got me interested in this period vice WWII.

Pat
  • 0

#26 konev

konev

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 203 posts

Posted 26 March 2007 - 1639 PM

Gents,

Question: Does anyone here live near Ft. McNair?

The reason I am asking is that I just a response back from the US Army Center of Military History.

I asked if they have a Unit Station List for the Army during the period 1985-1990. They said yes, but there are some gaps.

If anyone lives near McNair, they can visit there (they don't do research, nor do they do requests). You have to visit in person (arranged well in advance), then they will provide help in getting the material.

Copying costs are $0.15 each page.

I put in a similar request to the US Ari Force Historial Research Agency. No word back yet.

konev
  • 0

#27 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 26 March 2007 - 1802 PM

Gents,

Question: Does anyone here live near Ft. McNair?

The reason I am asking is that I just a response back from the US Army Center of Military History.

I asked if they have a Unit Station List for the Army during the period 1985-1990. They said yes, but there are some gaps.

If anyone lives near McNair, they can visit there (they don't do research, nor do they do requests). You have to visit in person (arranged well in advance), then they will provide help in getting the material.

Copying costs are $0.15 each page.

I put in a similar request to the US Ari Force Historial Research Agency. No word back yet.

konev


I live about 15 miles north of the city. Given that i still haven't managed to drag my butt over the UMaryland yet, I may not be the most reliable... But drop me the details.

Pat
  • 0

#28 konev

konev

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 203 posts

Posted 26 March 2007 - 2118 PM

Pat,

wilco via e-mail

konev
  • 0

#29 shrike6

shrike6

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 77 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 March 2007 - 2328 PM

If there's any documents at the University of Nebraska you might find helpful let me know. Heres the search link.

http://iris.unl.edu/
  • 0

#30 shrike6

shrike6

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 77 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 March 2007 - 1741 PM

USAR Aviation units by location for 1st US Army Area:

Unit | Location | subordinate to | Aircraft

31st Combat Aviation Group | Ft Meade, MD | 97th ARCOM | N/A

244th Theater Aviation Group | Glenview, IL | | N/A

2-123rd Aviation Battalion | St Paul, MN | 6th Infantry Division | 15 AH-1F, 13 OH-58A, 5 UH-1H

3-158th Aviation Battalion | Glenview, IL | 244th TAG | N/A
HHC | Glenview, IL | | N/A
A Co | Selfridge ANGB, MI | | 23 UH-1H
B Co | Waukesha, WI | | 23 UH-1H
C Co | Glenview, IL | | 23 UH-1H
D Co | Glenview, IL | | N/A

4-158th Aviation Battalion | Ft Devens, MA | 31st CAG (97th ARCOM) | N/A
A Co | Willow Grove, PA | | 19 UH-1H
Det 1, A Co | Hagerstown, MD | | 4 UH-1H
B Co | Ft Devens, MA | | 23 UH-1H
C Co (-) | Ft Eustis, VA | | 15 UH-1H
Det 1, C Co | Ft Meade, MD | | 8 UH-1H
D Co | Willow Grove, PA | | N/A

C Co, 8-158th Av (AVIM) | Green Castle, PA | 31st CAG | 2 UH-1H

5-159th Aviation Battalion | Ft Meade, MD | 31st CAG | 1 UH-1
B Co | Ft Meade, MD | 5-159th Av | 16 CH-47D

2-228th Aviation Battalion | Willow Grove, PA | 31st CAG (96th ARCOM) | N/A
A Co | Willow Grove, PA | 2-228th Av | 4 U-21A, 2 BE-65, 5 OH-58, 4 UH-1H
Det 1, A Co | Ft Meade, MD | Co A 2-228th | 2 U-21A 1 UH-1H
Det 2, A Co | Ft Devens, MA | 2-228th Av | 2 U-21A
Det 1, B Co | Columbus, OH | 244th TAG | 2 U-21A, 2 UH-1H
Det 2, B Co | Des Moines, IA | 244th TAG | 2 U-21A, 2 UH-1H

C Co, 2-502nd Av| Glenview, IL | 244th TAG | 2 UH-60

Av Plt, 11th SFG | Ft Meade, MD | 11th Special Forces Group | 2 UH-1H, 4 OH-58A

AV Plt 12th SFG | Glenview, IL | 12th Special Forces Group | 2 UH-1H, 4 OH-58A

423rd Medical Detachment | Syracuse, NY | 8th Medical Bde (77th ARCOM) | 6 UH-1V

336th Medical Detachment | Newburgh, NY | 8th Medical Bde (77th ARCOM) | 6 UH-1V

316th Medical Detachment | Elryia, OH | 30th Hospital Group | 6 UH-1V

354th Medical Detachment | Columbus, OH | 30th Hospital Group | 6 UH-1V

989th Medical Detachment | Des Moines, IA | 30th Hospital Group | 6 UH-1V

Edited by shrike6, 27 March 2007 - 1742 PM.

  • 0

#31 major66

major66

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 273 posts

Posted 29 March 2007 - 0622 AM

More on the German Orbat:

The divisional "Jägerbataillon" had no M113. They only had 2 ton trucks. There was an exception in the 6. Panzergrenadierdivision.
"Jägerbataillon" 66 and 67 were mounted on M113. This two battallions were active units while the battalions of the other divisions had to be mobilized.
The battalions consisted of a "Stabs- und Versorgungskompanie", 3 "Jägerkompanien" and a "Schwere Jägerkompanie" (Heavy) with towed mortars.

Information is from a former battalion commander of such an battallion.

/major66
  • 0

#32 major66

major66

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 273 posts

Posted 03 April 2007 - 1423 PM

Something more on the French:

3 Division Blindee (Freiburg, GE)

3 Régiment de Dragons (Stetten a.k.M., GE)
12 Régiment de Cuirassiers (Müllheim/Baden GE)
19 Groupe de Chasseurs (Villingen-Schwenningen, GE)
42 Régiment d' Infanterie (Offenburg, GE)
110 Régiment d' Infanterie (Donaueschingen, GE)
11 Régiment d'Artillerie (Offenburg, GE)
34 Régiment d'Artillerie (Müllheim/Baden, GE)
9 Régiment du Génie (Neuf-Brisach, FR)
3 Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (Freiburg, GE)
Escadron d'Eclairage Divisionnaire (Stetten a.k.M., GE)

Centre d'Entrainement Commando et 131 Régiment d'Infanterie (Breisach, GE) -only in peacetimes-

/major66
  • 0

#33 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 03 April 2007 - 1724 PM

Something more on the French:

3 Division Blindee (Freiburg, GE)

3 Régiment de Dragons (Stetten a.k.M., GE)
12 Régiment de Cuirassiers (Müllheim/Baden GE)
19 Groupe de Chasseurs (Villingen-Schwenningen, GE)
42 Régiment d' Infanterie (Offenburg, GE)
110 Régiment d' Infanterie (Donaueschingen, GE)
11 Régiment d'Artillerie (Offenburg, GE)
34 Régiment d'Artillerie (Müllheim/Baden, GE)
9 Régiment du Génie (Neuf-Brisach, FR)
3 Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (Freiburg, GE)
Escadron d'Eclairage Divisionnaire (Stetten a.k.M., GE)

Centre d'Entrainement Commando et 131 Régiment d'Infanterie (Breisach, GE) -only in peacetimes-

/major66


Thanks Major -- what's the last one?
  • 0

#34 major66

major66

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 273 posts

Posted 04 April 2007 - 0656 AM

Thanks Major -- what's the last one?

The last one was a training unit for commandos which in wartimes formed an infantrie regiment.

/major66
  • 0

#35 major66

major66

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 273 posts

Posted 04 April 2007 - 0743 AM

Some more on the French:

12 Division Légère Blindée (Saumur)

507 Régiment Chars de Combat (Fontevraud) <heavy>
3 Régiment de Chasseurs (Saumur) <light>
114 Régiment d'Infanterie (Saint Maixent) -ENSOA-
3 Régiment Chasseurs Parachutiste (Pau) -ETAP-
33 Régiment d'Artillerie (Poitiers)
1 company of Engineers (from 6 RG, Angers ?)
12 Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (Tours) -EAT-


14 Division Légère Blindee (Montpellier

11 Régiment Cuirassiers (Carpiagne) <heavy> -CIABC-
1 Régiment de Chasseurs (Canjuers) <light> -CPCIT-
81 Régiment d'Infanterie (Montpellier) -EAI- >>had in fact the role of a Régiment de Comm. & Sout.
3 Régiment d'Infanterie (Garrigues)
4 Régiment d'Entranger (Castelnaudary) -LEGION-
19 Régiment d'Artillerie (Draguignan) -EAA-
1 company of Engineers (from 7 RG, Avignon ?)

/major66
  • 0

#36 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 04 April 2007 - 0807 AM

The last one was a training unit for commandos which in wartimes formed an infantrie regiment.

/major66


As always, thanks for the info. Would that have formed part of the division, or would have it been an independent unit?

Pat
  • 0

#37 jakec

jakec

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 981 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:No fixed abode

Posted 04 April 2007 - 0904 AM

More on the German Orbat:

The divisional "Jägerbataillon" had no M113. They only had 2 ton trucks. There was an exception in the 6. Panzergrenadierdivision.
"Jägerbataillon" 66 and 67 were mounted on M113. This two battallions were active units while the battalions of the other divisions had to be mobilized.
The battalions consisted of a "Stabs- und Versorgungskompanie", 3 "Jägerkompanien" and a "Schwere Jägerkompanie" (Heavy) with towed mortars.

Information is from a former battalion commander of such an battallion.

/major66


Are we sure that the both jaeger battalions in trucks was an ongoing and not timebound decision. I say this because multiple sources and previous posts by tanknetters suggest that 1 battalion had M113s and 1 trucks. Might it be that at the time the said former battalion commander was operating they were both trucks but this later changed?
  • 0

#38 PCallahan

PCallahan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,345 posts
  • Location:Virginia, USA
  • Interests:Armor<br />Football

Posted 04 April 2007 - 0949 AM

Are we sure that the both jaeger battalions in trucks was an ongoing and not timebound decision. I say this because multiple sources and previous posts by tanknetters suggest that 1 battalion had M113s and 1 trucks. Might it be that at the time the said former battalion commander was operating they were both trucks but this later changed?


I'll second this query and had been trying to find info on this myself. It looks like the 1 and 1 organization was definately the plan, but I'm not clear if it was ever implemented.

Pat
  • 0

#39 DemolitionMan

DemolitionMan

    Land Ironclad

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 04 April 2007 - 1549 PM

I found this very detailed 4CMBG OOB for about 1980, the numbers should also be true for the late 80s:

4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group (4 CMBG) about 1980

First Regiment, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery (1 RCHA )

OFFR 38
OR 455
(TOTAL PERS 493)
M-109 SPH 24
M-578 RVT 4
M-113 APC 42
M-548 CCT 24
M-577 CCP 8
MOTOR CYCLE 3
JEEP 24
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 41
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 21
TRUCK 5 TON 18
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 15
HMG .50 CAL 28
GPMG 7.62 mm 75
VLLAD BLOWPIPE 15

Only 18 fully manned guns as one bty manned by caretaker elements only.

Royal Canadian Dragoons (RCD)

OFFR 33
OR 422
(TOTAL PERS 455)
LEOPARD C1 59
TAURUS (LEOPARD) ARV 3
M-578 RVT 1
LYNX 24
M-113 APC 23
M-548 CCT 18
M-577 CCP 3
MOTOR CYCLE 3
JEEP 16
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 33
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 36
TRUCK 5 TON 17
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 18
HMG .50 CAL 24
GPMG 7.62 mm 188
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 5


4 Combat Engineer Regiment (4 CER)

OFFR 10
OR 177
(TOTAL PERS 187)
BIBER AVLB 3
LYNX 3
M-113 APC 19
M-548 CCT 5
M-577 CCP 1
MOTOR CYCLE 3
JEEP 7
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 13
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 15
TRUCK 5 TON 10
SEMI TRAILER2O T LOW BED 1
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 4
HMG .50 CAL 3
GPMG 7.62 mm 31
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 3
CRANE 25 TON 1
GRADER MOTORIZED 1
LOADER SCOOP WHEELED 2
BULLDOZER 2

4 CMBG Headquarters and Signals Squadron (HQ & SIG SQN)

OFFR 23
OR 178
(TOTAL PERS 201)
M-113 APC 13
M-548 CCT 1
M-577 CCP 4
JEEP 22
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 26
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 40
TRUCK 5 TON 3
TOTAL WH VEH 91
TOTAL APC/TRUCK 109
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 4
HMG .50 CAL 2
GPMG 7.62 mm 8
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 4

Third Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment (3 RCR)

OFFR 33
OR 549
(TOTAL PERS 582)
LYNX 11
M-113 APC 90
M-548 CCT 8
M-577 CCP 3
JEEP 13
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 20
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 25
TRUCK 5 TON 6
TOW ATGM 18
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 66
HMG .50 CAL 101
GPMG 7.62 mm 34
MOR 81 mm 8
MOR 60 mm 12
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 11

Premiere Batallion Royal Vingt-et-deuxieme Regiment (1 R 22e R)

OFFR 33
OR 549
(TOTAL PERS 582)
LYNX 11
M-113 APC 90
M-548 CCT 8
M-577 CCP 3
JEEP 13
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 20
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 25
TRUCK 5 TON 6
TOW ATGM 18
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 66
HMG .50 CAL 101
GPMG 7.62 mm 34
MOR 81 mm 8
MOR 60 mm 12
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 11

4 Service Battalion (4 SVC BN)

OFFR 30
OR 480
(TOTAL PERS 510)
TAURUS (LEOPARD) ARV 2
M-113 APC 6
MOTOR CYCLE 4
JEEP 26
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 67
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 107
TRUCK 5 TON 92
SEMI TRAILER2O T LOW BED 5
SEMI TRAILER5000 GAL FUEL 6
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 22

4 Field Ambulance (4 FD AMB)

OFFR 9
OR 86
(TOTAL PERS 95)
M-113 APC 4
JEEP 3
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 24
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 9
TRUCK 5 TON 4
TOTAL WH VEH 40
GPMG 7.62 mm 4

4 Military Police Platoon (4 MP PL)

OFFR 1
OR 29
(TOTAL PERS 30)
MOTOR CYCLE 4
JEEP 11
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 3
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 2
TOTAL WH VEH 20
GPMG 7.62 mm 2

444 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (444 TAC HEL SQN)

OFFR 17
OR 74
(TOTAL PERS 91)
JEEP 5
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 15
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 18
TRUCK 5 TON 5
TOTAL WH VEH 43
CH-136 11
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 2

4 CMBG TOTAL

OFFR 227
OR 2999
(TOTAL PERS 3,226)
LEOPARD C1 59
LEOPARD ARV 5
BIBER AVLB 3
M-109 SPH 24
M-578 RVT 5
LYNX 49
M-113 APC 287
M-548 CCT 64
M-577 CCP 22
MOTOR CYCLE 17
JEEP 140
TRUCK 1 ¼ TON 262
TRUCK 2 ½ TON 298
TRUCK 5 TON 161
SEMI TRAILER2O T LOW BED 6
SEMI TRAILER5000 GAL FUEL 6
CH-136 11
TOW ATGM 36
MAW 84 mm CARL GUSTAV 197
HMG .50 CAL 259
GPMG 7.62 mm 376
MOR 81 mm C3 16
MOR 60 mm 24
VLLAD BLOWPIPE 15
AN/PS-15 (V) 2 34
CRANE 25 TON 1
GRADER MOTORIZED 1
LOADER SCOOP WHEELED 2
BULLDOZER 2
  • 0

#40 jakec

jakec

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 981 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:No fixed abode

Posted 05 April 2007 - 0836 AM

I found this very detailed 4CMBG OOB for about 1980, the numbers should also be true for the late 80s:


Unfortunately not. 4CMBG had significant changes in the mid-1980s.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users