Jump to content


Photo

What If: A World Frozen In The Cold War


  • Please log in to reply
184 replies to this topic

#41 toysoldier

toysoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,129 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Miami is a beatiful city
  • Interests:Sci-fi, history, gameplay

Posted 26 April 2012 - 2311 PM

And BTW, the Castro´s were somehow able to borrow from every sucker with money, ludicrous amounts of it, to the tune of a third of the national GDP. Now, try to extrapolate that to the USSR.
  • 0

#42 thekirk

thekirk

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,440 posts

Posted 27 April 2012 - 0254 AM

And BTW, the Castro´s were somehow able to borrow from every sucker with money, ludicrous amounts of it, to the tune of a third of the national GDP. Now, try to extrapolate that to the USSR.


Well, Castro and his fellow revolutionaries have somehow managed to pull off the trick of appealing to a whole swathe of idiots the world 'round. Witness the deification of one Che Guevara, who rightfully ought to be classed among the serial killers. I'd love to be able to explain the appeal of men like Castro, Che, and the most recent example, Chavez in Venezuela. All I can conclude is that there's a certain segment of humanity fascinated by these caricatures of politicians, and sigh at the stupidity of my fellow man. Hell, even Duranty loved Stalin...
  • 0

#43 urbanoid

urbanoid

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,409 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lodz, Poland

Posted 27 April 2012 - 0319 AM

Russia under Stalin embraced Socialism in One Country, to the detriment of the ComIntern.


Or rather Stalin wanted the West to believe that. And he pretty much succeeded.
  • 0

#44 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,734 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 27 April 2012 - 1118 AM

Well, the Cold War certainly stands apart from the Red Scare in concept and action. Containment, pact-o-mania etc post-1945 were hardly results of the Red Scare in individual Western countries.
  • 0

#45 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 28 April 2012 - 0554 AM

NVA Landstreitkräfte

-- Luftsturmregiment 40
-- 40. Artilleriebrigade

Militärbezirk III

- 4. Mot. Schützendivision
- 6. Mot. Schützendivision (inactive)
- 7. Panzerdivision
- 10. Mot. Schützendivision (inactive)
- 11. Mot. Schützendivision

Militärbezirk V

- 1. Mot. Schützendivision
- 8. Mot. Schützendivision (inactive)
- 9. Panzerdivision
- 19. Mot. Schützendivision (partially active)
- 20. Mot. Schützendivision (inactive)

Divisions are triangular with one motor rifle regiment in tank divisions, three in motor rifle divisions. Tank divisions have T-90M (total of 630), MRDs T-72B (total of 315), reserve divisions T-72GM (total of 525). Active divisions have BMP-3 (total of 525) and BTR-80 (total of 630), reserve divisions BMP-2 (total of 525) and BTR-70 (total of 1,050).

Active tank and BMP regiments have 2S31 SPHs (total of 162), active BTR regiments and towed battallions in divisional artillery regiments 2A80 gun mortars (total of 360); reserve BMP regiments 2S1 (total of 90), reserve BTR and artillery regiments plus light battalions of army artillery D-30 howitzers (total of 468). Self-propelled battalions of active divisional artillery have 2S19 SPHs (total of 90), reserve divisions 2S3 (total of 90). Heavy army artillery adds 54 2A65 howitzers. There is a total of 234 RM-70 rocket launchers.

The two army missile brigades have a total of 36 SS-21 launchers; depending upon state of treaties, there might also be twelve SS-23 launchers.
  • 0

#46 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 28 April 2012 - 1511 PM

NVA Luftstreitkräfte

1. Luftverteidigungsdivision

- Jagdfliegergeschwader 1 (20 x Su-27SK, 4 x Su-27UBK)
- Jagdfliegergeschwader 3 (20 x MiG-29A, 4 x MiG-29UB)
- Flugabwehr-Raketenregiment 31 (24 x S-300P)
- 41. Flugabwehr-Raketenbrigade (24 x S-300P, 6 x S-400)

3. Luftverteidigungsdivision

- Jagdfliegergeschwader 2 (20 x MiG-29A, 4 x MiG-29UB)
- Jagdfliegergeschwader 9 (20 x Su-27SK, 4 x Su-27UBK)
- Flugabwehr-Raketenregiment 13 (24 x S-300P)
- 43. Flugabwehr-Raketenbrigade (24 x S-300P, 6 x S-400)

Führungsorgan Front- und Militärtransportfliegerkräfte

- Verbindungsfliegerstaffel 14 (12 x L-410UVP)
- Transportfliegerstaffel 24 (12 x An-32)
- Marinefliegergeschwader 28 (24 x Su-22M4, 4 x Su-22UM3K)
- Transporthubschraubergeschwader 34 (24 x Mi-17)
- Jagdbombenfliegergeschwader 77 (24 x Su-22M4, 4 x Su-22UM3K)

While Marinefliegergeschwader 28 is nominally part of the Volksmarine and using navy ranks, it is led through the Frontal and Transport Aviation Command and therefore appears here.


Volksmarine

-- Marine-Pionierbataillon 18
-- Küstenraketenregiment 18 (24 x SS-C-6)
-- Marinehubschraubergeschwader 28 (6 x Mi-14BT, 9 x Mi-14PL)

1. Flottille

- 1. Landungsschiffbrigade
-- 1. Landungsschiffabteilung (6 x Frosch I)
-- 3. Landungsschiffabteilung (6 x Frosch I)

- 1. Sicherungsbrigade
-- 1. Uboot-Abwehrschiffabteilung (4 x Parchim I)
-- 1. Minensuch- und Räumschiffabteilung (6 x Kondor III)

4. Flottille

- 4. Küstenschutzschiffbrigade (3 x Gepard)

- 4. Sicherungsbrigade
-- 2. Uboot-Abwehrschiffabteilung (4 x Parchim I)
-- 2. Minensuch- und Räumschiffabteilung (6 x Kondor III)

6. Flottille

- 1. Raketenschiffbrigade
-- 1. Raketenschiffabteilung (4 x Tarantul I)
-- 2. Raketenschiffabteilung (4 x Balcom-10)

- 3. Raketenschiffbrigade
-- 3. Raketenschiffabteilung (4 x Balcom-10)
-- 4. Raketenschiffabteilung (4 x Balcom-10)

The Kondor III minehunters are another straight evolution of the Kondor type mostly recognizable by their 3 x AK-230 twin 30 mm guns instead of the older 25 mm 2M3.

Edited by BansheeOne, 30 April 2012 - 0507 AM.

  • 0

#47 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 29 April 2012 - 0626 AM

It seems I neglected army aviation.

Bundeswehr:

- three Heeresfliegerkommandos, each with 32 CH-53G, 40 NH 90, 40 PAH-2 Tiger, 30 Bo-105M
- Heeresfliegerregiment 6 with 20 NH 90, 20 PAH-2, 15 Bo-105M
- Heeresfliegerstaffel 900 with 12 Bo-105M
- nine divisional Heeresfliegerstaffeln, each with ten Bo-105M
- three inactive Heeresfliegerstaffeln, each with six Bo-105M

NVA:

- two Kampfhubschraubergeschwader, each with four Mi-2, four Mi-19, 12 Mi-24P, 12 Mi-28D, 12 Mi-40

Edited by BansheeOne, 30 April 2012 - 0513 AM.

  • 0

#48 jakec

jakec

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 981 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:No fixed abode

Posted 30 April 2012 - 0414 AM

For me, the most interesting thing would be seeing projects such as this
http://www.testpilot...01/mig301_e.htm
come to fruition if the Cold War had continued.
  • 0

#49 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 30 April 2012 - 0932 AM

I have devised an approximate alternate order of Soviet succession based upon the assumption that Kirilenko follows Breshnev from 1976 and the rule that former KGB chairmen tend to end up on top because they know about everybody else' dirt. ^_^

Andrei Kirilenko 1976-1990

Viktor Chebrikov 1990-1999

Vladimir Kryuchkov 1999-2007

Vladimir Putin 2007- :D

Now figuring out their possible American counterparts.
  • 0

#50 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,334 posts
  • Interests:tanks. More tanks. Guns. BIG GUNs!

Posted 30 April 2012 - 0942 AM

The KGB leadership of the SU is not a recipe for success. What was needed was a radical shift to economic performance immediately post Brezhnev. The information revolution would further weaken the Combloc, A PRC style decouple of political control and economic activity is imperative. You would have the emergence of a new group of 'party oligarchs' that are successful entrepreneurs that are Party members.
Putin is quite representative of the 'evolved apparatchik'. In the alternate Soviet Union, GUM offers Grand Dame to wash down the Beluga.

A contemporary Berlin would be awesome, filled with counterfeit everything!

Edited by Simon Tan, 30 April 2012 - 0947 AM.

  • 0

#51 mnm

mnm

    Plague doctor

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,739 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Where the sun doth shine!
  • Interests:Totally uninteresting.

Posted 30 April 2012 - 1259 PM

I have devised an approximate alternate order of Soviet succession based upon the assumption that Kirilenko follows Breshnev from 1976 and the rule that former KGB chairmen tend to end up on top because they know about everybody else' dirt. ^_^

Andrei Kirilenko 1976-1990

Viktor Chebrikov 1990-1999

Vladimir Kryuchkov 1999-2007

Vladimir Putin 2007- :D

Now figuring out their possible American counterparts.


I think you've missed Piotr I. Kamenev. The one who let Kiril Lakota go and become Pope.
  • 0

#52 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,334 posts
  • Interests:tanks. More tanks. Guns. BIG GUNs!

Posted 30 April 2012 - 1550 PM

Vlad Putin, Soviet action superstar! See him in Red Thunder III when he takes on Mujahideen terrorists and their American backerss who seize control of a school in Uzbekistan.

Droog him on MyComrade

Edited by Simon Tan, 30 April 2012 - 1552 PM.

  • 0

#53 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 01 May 2012 - 0734 AM

Okay, let's try something more simple: an alternate succession of US presidents. :D

I see two possible points of deviation in the same timeframe: One, Watergate never blows, Nixon retires honorably in 1977, Ford wins the Republican primaries against Reagan as before but, untainted by the scandal and controversial pardon for Nixon, defeats Cater. In 1980 he might be up against Ted Kennedy since Carter already spent his shot, but probably prevail due to Kennedy's baggage. 1984 might see Reagan or Rockefeller against a Democrat who might or might not be Mondale, as the latter of course never became vice president. Anyway, after 16 years of Republican rule, there's likely a considerable urge for change. If the new Democrat president is Hart however, he'll probably be tripped up in 1988 by Donna Rice, at which point we're losing focus ...

Two, everything stays the same until Reagan's election, but he is killed or incapacitated in John Hinckley's attempt, and George H. W. Bush serves out his term, likely re-elected in 1984 over Mondale in large part out of sympathy and defiance regarding Reagan's fate. 1988 might be Dole vs. Dukakis, and absent Cold War thaw, a younger Dole would probably prevail. Nor can I see Clinton rise in a Cold War environment; maybe Tsongas as the Democratic nominee in 1992? Out of focus again ...
  • 0

#54 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 01 May 2012 - 0945 AM

From my perspective, Carter fell mostly victim to the economic malaise. Pissing off young liberal voters by reinstating draft registration likely didn't help, either. But the USians will probably have a more informed view, and I like the simple yet elegant solution above.

Another idea: What would happen if the Soviets invaded post-revolutionary Iran instead of Afghanistan and/or Pakistan? Relations with the Ayatollahs soured quickly after initial Soviet overtures towards the new anti-American regime were rebuffed, and the Iranian oil has always been a temptation. Maybe dust off the People's Republics of Azerbaijan and Kurdistan?

I have a fairly simple and well-founded model for East German leadership succession BTW: Honecker croaks in 1994, Egon Krenz succeeds him and is still in. :D

West Germany is more difficult; as mentioned before, Kohl was arguably handed re-election by German unification. Media and intellectuals were derisive of his provincial ways, the SPD was already strongest party in 1987, and the Conservatives were saved only by the strong showing of their liberal junior coalition partner. With the Cold War going on, support for the left wing of the SPD and particularly the Greens from the peace movement would continue to build.

With no early all-German elections, there might have been a Red-Green government in 1991. Those tended to not survive the first term even on the state level back then, and I'd guess this to hold true particularly if headed by Oskar Lafontaine; Saarlanders might have tolerated or even liked his antics, but he showed himself unfit for national government when he practically deserted from his post as finance minister in 1999 - even if it was mostly due to a war of big egos with Gerhard Schröder, which wouldn't apply if he was the head cheese himself.

Afterwards - probably a grand coalition and eventual conservative-liberal government again, headed by Wolfgang Schäuble? Schröder could still be chancellor from 1999 on, but obviously he would not be succeeded by Angela Merkel, since in this timeline she would still work in the DDR Academy of Science's Central Institute of Physical Chemistry!

Oh, and I would be working in Bonn, and my brother #3 would never had met his wife ...
  • 0

#55 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 01 May 2012 - 1454 PM

**SNIP**

Oh, and I would be working in Bonn, and my brother #3 would never had met his wife ...


Where, presumably, last year´s I&I would have taken place - or would we have managed to get to Koblenz? And I would be totally stir crazy after 30 years behind the wire!
  • 0

#56 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 02 May 2012 - 0322 AM

There would probably never have been a German 2011 I&I at all, nor might we have gone to Seattle in 2010 for lack of the dynamic that developed from linking up in Berlin ... and of course the Czech events would have been much less accessible, and Banshee Four Alpha and Bravo would likely never have met either. For that matter, it would be highly dubious if there were as many Tanknetters from (former) Pact countries! Neither Tuccy nor Vasiliy Fofanov would be living in Paris, nor Fritz in New York, and some of our Israelis would still be in the Soviet Union. And Günter Grass wouldn't criticize German delivery of Dolphin subs to Israel, because that wouldn't have happened without Gulf War I.

We have not considered the impact of the internet on the presumptive contemporary Warsaw Pact very much so far. Of course I guess the answer is it would be highly controlled there akin to the Great Chinese Firewall, made much easier by the fact there would be very few net-capable computers, mostly in public administration, industry and for the nomenklatura. Eastern users would be the rare types like toysoldier back on Cuba.

Edited by BansheeOne, 02 May 2012 - 0324 AM.

  • 0

#57 toysoldier

toysoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11,129 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Miami is a beatiful city
  • Interests:Sci-fi, history, gameplay

Posted 02 May 2012 - 1807 PM

Eastern users would be the rare types like toysoldier back on Cuba.


Word, i was privileged. Heck, even now, tweet and sms activity in Cuba is hundredfold that of internet. Most information is distributed via USB memory sticks or transportable HDs.
But then again, social networks and cyber-dissidents are the government´s sole pain in the neck. Yoani Sánchez remains the only dissident specifically berated by the The Beard. Although this isn´t actually a big deal: this article tells it like it is:
http://www.penultimo.../04/23/the-gap/
  • 0

#58 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,334 posts
  • Interests:tanks. More tanks. Guns. BIG GUNs!

Posted 02 May 2012 - 1835 PM

I expect the consumer tech revolution would be much slower. China would not have the same level of production and consumer revolution. The beneficiaries would eb Japan and the tigers who really do NOT have the population to do the Chinese thing. If someone would go and do the legwork, it would be an awesome alt-reality. I pose this question....what does Saddam do in 1991? Does the GCC cave and forgive his debts?

Simon
  • 0

#59 Corinthian

Corinthian

    Stone Age Bitter Delusional Retard

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,336 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Peek-a-boo, I'm behind you.
  • Interests:Wholesome stuff.

Posted 02 May 2012 - 2259 PM

Subic and Clark still here (did I post that already?), and I'd be taking pix of CVNs and B-52s from the highlands surrounding these bases.

Our military would still suck (as if that changed when the Wall fell), but maybe in a better state like we'd still have flying A-7s and F-5s....

Marcos might've still be President post-1986, having cracked down on Aquino and supporters (his excuse was they were godless commie bastards), but would've still croaked in 1989 and succeeded by his VP, and from thereon it would be better (politically, socially)
  • 0

#60 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 03 May 2012 - 0454 AM

I expect the consumer tech revolution would be much slower. China would not have the same level of production and consumer revolution. The beneficiaries would eb Japan and the tigers who really do NOT have the population to do the Chinese thing.


What path China would go down is another question that occurred to me last night. Would there have been as complete an embracing of capitalism and a widespread protest movement resulting in Tian'anmen Square without the example of Perestroika/Glasnost? Probably yes, I think reasons were overwhelmingly domestic. How would the economically ascending, more assertive China emerging as a third pole influence global powerplay?

Apropos of CVNs and B-52s, I think it's time to talk of the big boys' gear. How would the following fare:

- Crusader
- Commanche
- A-12/naval F-22/Tomcat 21/F-18E/F/F-18G
- P-7
- Seawolf/Virginia class
- Iowa class/CGNs/DD-21/CG-21/LCS
- Yak-141/Kiev class
- Ulyanovsk class
- [...]

No doubt some of them would have been cancelled/retired for complexity and cost overruns no matter what, but they might have had different replacements.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users