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#1 Simon Tan

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 1013 AM

He hears but does not listen. Moving from centralized (pre war) to push down is in direct repsonse to the dispersal of forces in the islands and to garrison Greenland and Iceland. Tell me how you propose to achieve the admittedly modest war aims with your centralized operational level organization. Since you bothered to read the whole thread, you will have understood that the organizations started from a force generation and cadre basis. This is the only basis of organizing yourself with limited resources.
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#2 ikalugin

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 1034 AM

@ Simon Tan
I do listen, but I do disagree at the same time.

The way I see it - the inital objective was to be capable of fighting a war against USSR in it's mainland as a part of a coalition (simmilar to the help of certain nations just after the WW1). Then it is remade to adress the island hopping campaighn against Japan.
Existing land forces are excessive against any possible Soviet/Japanese landings on the Alaska mainland at that time.

This means (atleast in my view) that the pre war army must have had the mobile element as part of the Army corps (ideally a division-corps, atleast an armored brgades), with central use artillery units for reinforcement of a priority sector (concentration of effort principle). The "island hopping version" sure, would be with high level dispersal of assets within the 2 divisions used (Naval Infantry one and the regular infantry one).

Yes, I do understand the existing limitations and I applaud the effort made into making the numbers work, but I disagree with the organisation made.

@Tuccy in 1944, on Western Front you had a much better road network and logistics, smaller objective depth. If you compare British experience (91 division per 400km I believe) to the soviet one (560 divisions/corps per 3200 km) you would notice that overall densities were not all that different, especially when taking into account how soviets concentrated effort on points of decisions.
The approach you are talking about did not work, as it did not collapse the enemy defense line due to poor concentration of effort and failed to exploit it due to poor operational flexibility (AD being called back at Nancy). Instead of quick advancement you had the attritional battle, which is less effective in terms of materiel of war used.

p.s. just trying to provide a critical (if "angry russian") position on your little roleplay game here, that this topic is now.

Edited by ikalugin, 19 November 2012 - 1038 AM.

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#3 Simon Tan

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 1459 PM

Thread for meta discussions of the Red Ice Box thread.
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#4 BansheeOne

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 0809 AM

As the main thread grows, it becomes more difficult finding older information back. So I thought it would be best to create a content index here, hoping to remember where to find that. :D

The Quest for the Russian Roots

The Great Russian American Armed Forces Reform of 1940

Drafting the 1942 OOB
 

1932 Census Data for Traditional Regimental Recruiting Areas

 

The 1942 Draft Army OOB

 

The 1942 Draft Navy OOB

 

The 1942 Draft Air Force OOB and Interservice Conference

 

The Great Spring Exercises of 1942

The Japanese Attack
 

Coordinating the Allied Air War

 

The 1943 Draft OOB and Rank Reform

 

The First Battle of the Komandorskis

 

The European Question: Iceland versus the Aleutians
 

The Aleutian and Atlantic Task Forces

 

Building up the Air and Rail Links

 

Going on the Offensive: The 1943 Operations
 

The Debate on Operational Art

 

The 1944 Air Force Draft OOB

 

The 1944 Navy Draft OOB

 

The Plans for the Mechanized Warfare Trials

 

The Battle for Kiska

 

Panama, Hawaii and the Komandorskis: The Final 1944 OOB

The 1944 Operations
 

Preparing for the Komandorskis

 

Monte Cassino, Rome and the Raid on Attu

 

The Second Battle of the Komandorskis

 

The 1945 Draft OOBs

 

The Third Battle of the Komandorskis, Operation Dragoon and the Air Raid against the Kuriles

 

The Retaking of Attu

 

The European Question Revisited: Dunkirk and the Scheldt

 

The Revised 1945 Army and Air Force OOBs

 

The Ardennes

 

The Minor Allies Initiative

 

The Reduction of Dunkirk

 

Cooperation with Australia and the Negotiations about an Allied North Pacific Command Organization

 

The Homeguard in 1945

 

Into the Reich: The Netherlands, Czechoslovakia and Operation Varyag

 

Operation Amherst, Operation Dykebreak and the Czechoslovakian Border

 

The Thrust onto Prague

 

Operations Longboat and Battleaxe

 

Operation Keychain: The Kuriles

 

The 1946 Draft OOBs and Allied Forces North Pacific Area

 

Operation Fencegate

 

The Island-hopping Plans

 

The Potsdam Negotiations

 

The Challenge at the Close

 

The Soviet Move onto Hokkaido

 

War's End


Edited by BansheeOne, 14 December 2013 - 1713 PM.

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#5 ikalugin

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 0931 AM

Wasn't it page 3? When Simon Tan set the objectives of non comunistic Alaska in 80s, all other things staying the same?
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#6 Simon Tan

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 1148 AM

Signals is devious...... :ph34r:
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#7 ikalugin

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 1229 PM

Should I make the long post for my proposed organisation of joint forward command center and troops/fires control procedures here or in the main thread?

As I disagree with speed/inflexibility issues pointed out.

Would do that tommorow.

Edited by ikalugin, 23 November 2012 - 1241 PM.

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#8 Simon Tan

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 1317 PM

If you are going to get meta....do it here. Railing against the system...do it here. Fire control arguments.....do it here. If it is your opinion do it here.
Many things that are on the main thread fly in the face of my own preferences, they are just appropriate in that context and for the mysterious Chief of Signals who is an enigma, wrapped in bacon and served with a small glass of Tokaji.
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#9 Argus

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 0135 AM

Fire control argument?

US organisation with UK fire control.

best of both worlds

shane :)
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#10 Simon Tan

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 0220 AM

This is what this thread is for *slams hatch in anticipation*.......
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#11 Argus

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 0237 AM

Glad to be of service

shane :)
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#12 ikalugin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 0304 AM

Writing from iPad.

Would post a long answer later, when I get to proper keyboard.

Russian/Soviet fire control is better efficiency wise, shame so little was written in English on the matter. I thing Glantz might have writen something to the effect. Would it help if I get "Artillery Divizion In Combat translated"?
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#13 BansheeOne

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 0624 AM

Proceed with any information available. As I said by PM, this is something we haven't really resolved until now, just assuming spotting, plotting and firing orders get done "somehow" within our not-too-detailed artillery organization.
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#14 swerve

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 1302 PM

I couldn't find a way to get British-style forward air controllers into the organisation before Salerno.

Lots of things I'd like to do but can't see how to force in. We can't have 'em thinking everything up. It has to evolve from what they're doing, or be learned.

Edited by swerve, 24 November 2012 - 1302 PM.

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#15 Simon Tan

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 1533 PM

The thread is the art of the possible and somewhat lucky.
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#16 Simon Tan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 1132 AM

I'll admit to not really having any real idea about what to do with the Hellcat other than it looks cool and goes fast and is something other than a M3 half track and M3 light tank for the cavalry to have.
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#17 BansheeOne

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 1240 PM

That's okay, because I like the Hellcat too but it was a mediocre tank destroyer in practice, so we we might as well turn it into a cavalry "tank". Or alternately, turn the cavalry into our tank destroyer arm. Hey, it goes fast and is open-topped, which means you have excellent visibility - couldn't ask more for a recon vehicle!
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#18 swerve

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 1242 PM

Thinking about the gathering in of emigres.

A fleeing government with somewhere to set itself up in should be able to hang on to at least some of the overseas embassies & consulates, & get companies with assets overseas to transfer ownership (in some cases no doubt disputed by the Soviet govt.) to new HQs set up in Russian America. This would give emigres somewhere to flee to, both those wavering whether to stay or run, & those who ended up somewhere insecure & unwelcoming, such as Manchuria.

Russian America could use Russian merchant ships to transport refugees from any port where the USSR couldn't impound them.

The Harbin contingent would probably migrate en masse, & there'd probably be an additional exodus through Vladivostok. I can imagine some getting out through Persia. The main exodus would be from the West, though, as historically. Wrangel's army & camp followers, Yudenich's lot in the Baltics, & anyone who got over the land borders. There'd be something of a shortage of women, so a larger proportion of those who got out might gravitate to Russian America than the men. It'd probably seem more attractive than prostitution in Harbin, Shanghai, Istanbul or wherever, which is where a lot ended up.

Hundreds of thousands in the first couple of years is probably realistic.
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#19 Marek Tucan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 1309 PM

Well, in our (RusAm) conditions it makes sense:
Not much armor threat - no need for thick armor
High mobility - cavalry


Maybe after war we may consider Hellcat 90?
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#20 Simon Tan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 1627 PM

After the war, Russia is going to corner the market on M18s!
Right after I work out how to replace the Cyclone with a more sensible engine.

Edited by Simon Tan, 26 November 2012 - 1628 PM.

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