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Because The United Kingdom?


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#4401 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 0930 AM

One of my ancestors was an American. They emigrated from Germany by way of England, supposedly due to religious persecution. And they settled in America, If I remember rightly the latter half of the 17th Century. They married into a Local Mohawk tribe near New York. Then one of them came to Britain and settled. So you have to ask the question, if Britain and its monarchy was so authoritarian, why were people coming back from America to the Uk? Because, like much else of early America, its probably a myth.

 

Im sure the crafts guilds in England were another reason for emigration. But it illustrates, economic migration is really nothing new.


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#4402 DB

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1133 AM

When did they leave Germany, were they hoping to stay here, when did they move on to the US and when did they return to the UK?
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#4403 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1406 PM

It was a bit later than I thought, they were Palantines, which   would place them as having emigrated about 1710.

https://en.wikipedia...erman_Palatines

Hilarious to read that, because clearly Westminster concerns about immigration from Europe are nothing new. :D

 

I never gave it a thought before, but this was due to the war of Spanish succession. I was watching Simon Seebag Montefiore's programe on Vienna, and its fascinating to think some of my relatives were caught up in that war.

 

I dont know when their decendent (it may have been more than one, im not sure) came back, but Im pretty certain it was before before US independence.  Another branch stayed, and the subsquent history of them was pretty interesting for my mother to track. One of them ended up fighting at Gettysburg.


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#4404 rmgill

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1809 PM

One of my ancestors was an American. They emigrated from Germany by way of England, supposedly due to religious persecution. And they settled in America, If I remember rightly the latter half of the 17th Century. They married into a Local Mohawk tribe near New York. Then one of them came to Britain and settled. So you have to ask the question, if Britain and its monarchy was so authoritarian, why were people coming back from America to the Uk? Because, like much else of early America, its probably a myth.


Wait, now you're questioning the reasons why folks even left the UK at all?

Do I need to explain some more of our mutual history to you?

What was the Declaration of Indulgences again?

You'll find a lot of Europeans came to the US because they were tired of being caught up in European wars. My own ancestors from Pomerania/Prussia were one such group.
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#4405 Panzermann

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 2222 PM

 

One of my ancestors was an American. They emigrated from Germany by way of England, supposedly due to religious persecution. And they settled in America, If I remember rightly the latter half of the 17th Century. They married into a Local Mohawk tribe near New York. Then one of them came to Britain and settled. So you have to ask the question, if Britain and its monarchy was so authoritarian, why were people coming back from America to the Uk? Because, like much else of early America, its probably a myth.


Wait, now you're questioning the reasons why folks even left the UK at all?

Do I need to explain some more of our mutual history to you?

What was the Declaration of Indulgences again?

You'll find a lot of Europeans came to the US because they were tired of being caught up in European wars. My own ancestors from Pomerania/Prussia were one such group.

 

 

"it's the economy, stupid" ;)

 

Yes, of course people were fed up with the wars, but also a big driver was economic possibilites they did not have at home. Either being the thrid son or something or the area they were living in was so crowded (farming takes lots of space) that there were no opportunities. Hence the many german settlers taking up the offers to settle in Romania, Russia etc. And then later America and Canada. Same goes for other settelr waves like the irish leaving Ireland after the famine, italians emigrating to north and south america around 1900 etc. these waves were very often preceded by crisis of some sort. When diverging religious ideas came into the mix it made moving more pressing (or more attractive) I think.

 

 

Stuart's american ancestor migrating to England is a case of exception proving the rule I think. Just look at the numbers migrating into which direction.


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#4406 rmgill

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0052 AM

Ill admit militant socialism is a threat. Why do you think I, a nominal socialist in leaning, refuses to vote for Jeremy Corbyn? But in your bland world everyone is in two opposing camps,


Things tend to align with them vs us but I don't see it that way. I do however think there's little to commend socialism writ large. Wan to team up with 30 hippy dippy people, knock yourself out, feel free to knock half the girls up. No skin off my nose. Just don't expect me to pay for your fun.


Throttled in its crib, read the source above, it was 100 years ago, straight after a world war.


Exactly. You also didn't have universal suffrage until 1918. As in Not even all Adult men could vote before then (let alone women which was sort of a new thing). You didn't even expect that all of your citizens had rights until that same time frame.
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#4407 rmgill

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0056 AM

Economy matters. Its the icing on the cake. But don't worry about your beard if you head is gonna get chopped off.

For example not having all of the males of your family conscripted to be sent off to fight the French in yet another war across the continent (Franco Prussian War) is a strong driver. That's what drove my Schimmelfennig ancestors from Prussia.

An EX GF's family, Weidenbach left Germany because things one of the family member had written about the Kaiser made life hard for the whole family.
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#4408 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0305 AM

 

 

One of my ancestors was an American. They emigrated from Germany by way of England, supposedly due to religious persecution. And they settled in America, If I remember rightly the latter half of the 17th Century. They married into a Local Mohawk tribe near New York. Then one of them came to Britain and settled. So you have to ask the question, if Britain and its monarchy was so authoritarian, why were people coming back from America to the Uk? Because, like much else of early America, its probably a myth.


Wait, now you're questioning the reasons why folks even left the UK at all?

Do I need to explain some more of our mutual history to you?

What was the Declaration of Indulgences again?

You'll find a lot of Europeans came to the US because they were tired of being caught up in European wars. My own ancestors from Pomerania/Prussia were one such group.

 

 

"it's the economy, stupid" ;)

 

Yes, of course people were fed up with the wars, but also a big driver was economic possibilites they did not have at home. Either being the thrid son or something or the area they were living in was so crowded (farming takes lots of space) that there were no opportunities. Hence the many german settlers taking up the offers to settle in Romania, Russia etc. And then later America and Canada. Same goes for other settelr waves like the irish leaving Ireland after the famine, italians emigrating to north and south america around 1900 etc. these waves were very often preceded by crisis of some sort. When diverging religious ideas came into the mix it made moving more pressing (or more attractive) I think.

 

 

Stuart's american ancestor migrating to England is a case of exception proving the rule I think. Just look at the numbers migrating into which direction.

 

 

I dont know, particularly in the early days when things were damn hard. There were apparently an influx of Americans that came to fight in the English civil war. For Parliament, natch. Presumably they did not all return home, even those that were uninjured.

 

But regardless, I think we have established that all the early Americans leaving Europe to escape monarchial  despotism is a lot of bunk. They left for a lot of reasons, yes, certainly  including that, but it wasnt the primary driver. They left for precisely the same reasons the Mexicans are desperate to cross the border, economic betterment. The same reason Europeans come here for that matter.


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#4409 BansheeOne

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0422 AM

People came back from America all the time because the situation back home had improved for them, they couldn't make it in the New World (or in fact they had made it big and could afford to return in a grand way), or they were plain homesick. It was probably a miniscule share of all emigrants, but not unusual. Donald Trump's grandfather Frederick wanted to return to Germany because of his wife he had married on a trip back home, but got denied the German citizenship he had lost in the meantime on the suspicion that he originally went to the US to evade conscription (though the relevant law was apparently only introduced after he left). So he told them to go piss up a rope, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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#4410 Rick

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0440 AM

Moving for economic reasons is also happening inside the U.S. ie people leaving California for other states. 


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#4411 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0734 AM

Moving for economic reasons is also happening inside the U.S. ie people leaving California for other states. 

 

Well it happened before, a lot of people moved to California in the 50's and 60's to support the defence industry and laterly the lunar programme. I gather the latter is the main reason Silicon Valley arose there.

 

 

People came back from America all the time because the situation back home had improved for them, they couldn't make it in the New World (or in fact they had made it big and could afford to return in a grand way), or they were plain homesick. It was probably a miniscule share of all emigrants, but not unusual. Donald Trump's grandfather Frederick wanted to return to Germany because of his wife he had married on a trip back home, but got denied the German citizenship he had lost in the meantime on the suspicion that he originally went to the US to evade conscription (though the relevant law was apparently only introduced after he left). So he told them to go piss up a rope, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Central core of the plot of the first series of 'Heimat' as I recall.

 

Yeah, I remember hearing that in a documentary on Trump.


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#4412 Harold Jones

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 1007 AM

People came back from America all the time because the situation back home had improved for them, they couldn't make it in the New World (or in fact they had made it big and could afford to return in a grand way), or they were plain homesick. It was probably a miniscule share of all emigrants, but not unusual. 

Found this listing of reasons people returned.  It tracks with what I remember from a class I took on the history of US immigration.

 

Birds of Passage The reasons for returning home are as complex as the human mind. Some returned in what they considered triumph whereas others went home in defeat. Some never intended to stay in America permanently. We may think that "guest workers" who come for temporary work are a recent phenomena but they are not. The Italians were accustomed to moving about Europe in search of temporary work and many came to the United States with that in mind. They wanted to work for a season or two and make enough money to buy a farm back home. They never intended to stay. These short-timers were sometimes known as "birds of passage" and were often resented by Americans.

Retirement Even those who stayed in America many years may have retired to the homeland. With a small savings they could live well and be looked upon with respect by the villagers since they had lived in America. Many, especially Italians, wanted to return home to die so they could be buried in the family churchyard. Often the elderly parents would return home but their descendants stayed in America.

The Marriage Market Since the dowry was very much alive in many parts of Europe and emigration had reduced the number of eligible males, many women came to the United States to earn some money to improve their position in the marriage market. Marriage was very much an economic arrangement between two families and a woman's social position, physical comfort and standing in the community for the rest of her life depended on having enough assets to be considered a desirable match by a young man's family. If she could work for two or three years, she could return home in a much better bargaining position.

Nostalgia For some the American dream just didn't work out. They got discouraged and went back. However, many of these people found that their memories of home had been viewed through rose colored glasses and they were equally unhappy with their old problems. They had become more American than they realized and found there was a lot of good to be said of their new country. Some of these people eventually immigrated to America a second time.

Economic Depression and Family Obligation A countrywide economic depression also caused many to return. Problems with the family left behind was also another reason for returning, but this would probably only be temporary. Some women had to return to take care of a sick parent. When they left the US they may not have known whether they would stay permanently in the old country or return to the US.

Diversity or Chaos? Some found America too diverse. They liked the familiar rules and setting where people spoke the same language, attended the same church and conformed to the same standards. They also hated seeing their children growing up as foreigners to them. However, trying to return these children to the old customs was usually a losing battle. The children either stayed in the U.S. when the parents returned or they came back as soon as they were of age. More affluent immigrants might have felt that America had no culture and preferred the refinements of the old world. As with those whose return was driven by nostalgia, these people also often found there was much to admire about the new world with its energy and freedom.

Unwilling Emigrants In England the local authorities were responsible for taking care of the poor. In some cases they decided the best solution for the indigent was a one way ticket to America. Since these people were unwilling emigrants in the first place, they might return home as soon as they had earned enough money to pay their passage.

No Pioneer Spirit Some immigrants just did not have the personality required to uproot their lives and settle in an entirely new, and sometimes hostile, environment. It wouldn't have mattered where they went. They were simply unhappy outside of their familiar setting.


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#4413 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 1019 AM

I seem to recall a lot of immigrants arrived to take part in the Klondyke gold rush, which was just at the beginning of what we might now call mass transit (though you still had to carry twice your own weight over a mountain to get there). I daresay many returned when they found themselves getting fleeced, that is if they could afford it.

 

As Trumps great Grandfather found, good prospects if you owned the local whorehouse though. :D


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#4414 MiloMorai

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 1706 PM

Close enough I guess.

 

 

RESIDENTS of a tiny Irish village where Viagra is manufactured have complained that fumes from a nearby factory have been giving them a hard time.

Pharmaceutical firm Pfizer have produced the popular erectile dysfunction drug in Ringaskiddy, Co. Cork for the last two decades.

Villagers claim that Ringaskiddy’s proximity to the company's plant and its “love fumes” has been giving local men – and even their canine friends – enormous sexual potency.

Barmaid Debbie O’Grady told the Sunday Times: “One whiff and you’re stiff. We’ve been getting the love fumes for years now for free.”

Ms O’Grady’s mother, Sadie, said that living in Ringaskiddy was a blessing for men who suffer “problems in that department”, adding that there is “something in the air”.

The widow said: “I'm a flirtatious woman, a lot of us are. You just have to have a spark, that's all. There's a lovely man waiting down the road for me”.

Pfizer said in a statement that the stiff whiff was nothing more than an “amusing” myth, but that there were no hard feelings.

“Our manufacturing processes have always been highly sophisticated as well as highly regulated,” they said.

Nevertheless, residents remain scared stiff that something more sinister is going on.

Psychiatric nurse Fiona Toomey, who recently returned to the village after five years in America, said that local dogs “walk around in a state of sexual excitement”.

“I think that Viagra must have got into the water supply,” she said.

“I’m convinced that’s what happened at the very beginning before they were so closely regulated.”

https://www.irishpos...hard-ons-142488


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#4415 Colin

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 1917 PM

Just reading the wiki article on Prehistoric Britain, sounds like it was a miserable place most of the time. https://en.wikipedia...istoric_Britain


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#4416 lucklucky

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 0740 AM

Was there any place not miserable in pre-historic times?  maybe some very temperate place?


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#4417 rmgill

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 1407 PM

You think pre-historic Britain was wet. You should see how wet the Doggerland part could get.
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