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History of Soviet tanks


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#1 Harkonnen

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1705 PM

History of Soviet tanks – T-72 difference from T-64/ T-80


Maybe this will explain that T-72 was not the only and not the best Soviet tank....


Contrary to the basic believe of the western and even Russian public T-72 is not a development of T-64A (the Soviet Main Battle Tank). T-72 vas development of Ural design bureau experimental tank that lost the competition to T-64 predecessor o. 430. That is why T-72 use the 22 rounds autoloader previously planned for modernized T-62. A completely different drivetrain and different turret.
The T-72 series itself was a “mobilization” tank of the soviet army. It was designed for mass production in war time in huge numbers.

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T-72 predecessor o. 140 and 167

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The most important threads of Soviet tank development before 1966

Basically the first automatic fire control and gun-lunched missile appeared on T-64B in 1976. Then it was installed on T-80. The automatic fire control was never installed on T-72 or it’s versions.
The same story with armor – while the T-64-s and T-80 was equipment with high cost composite armor the T-72 had the simplest possible sand rods and then reflecting plates which were much less valuable than advanced compositions of T-80U …
So the key idea is that T-72 was not the primary Soviet tank, it was exported worldwide to any nation possible. While no T-64 or T-80 was ever exported (After Soviet Union T-80U was exported to ROK, Cyprus and T-80UD to Pakistan)…

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The most important threads of Soviet tank development after 1966

FIRE CONTROL

1-st T-72 and T-80/64 were equipped with different guns.
T-80/64 received newest guns much before T-72-variants.

T-64 fire control consists of (basic information)

Targeting complex 1A34
-laser sight 1G42 with block of shot permission 1G43 and tank ballistic computer 1V517.
The AUTOMATIC sensors of entering information are
Heel sensor 1B14
Wind sensor 1B11
relative bearing sensor
tank speed sensor

The following information is entered before combat manually is temperature of the air, type of ammunition batch, atmosphere pressure, charge temperature, air temperature, barrel wear.

In the automatic fire control the correction factor for target range, tank speed, target speed, wind are entered automatically. The gunner just puts the mark on the target and the gun is adjusted automatically to required position, the mark does not change it’s position.


What is T-72B fire control –

The automatic fire control was not installed on T-72.
Instead of ballistic computer the tank is equipped with ballistic corrector.
The correction factor for target range tank speed, target speed, wind are not entered automatically. The wind correction factor is measured “by eye” (until the last serial versions and T-72C).
The gunner puts the mark on the target measures the range with LRF, the mark moves lover depending on range … It requires more time then with automatic FCS.
Another diference of T-72B from T-64/80B is that T-72 can not fire guided missiles while moving…

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placements of fire control elements inside the T-72B combat compartament

1 – executive cylinder of vertical drive VN
2 – Block for entering corrections
3 – guidance block for 9K120
4 – control block
5 – converter for 9K120
6 – electric module of 1A40-1
7 – round
8 – guided missile
9 – block for entering range
10 – horizontal drive GN
12 – electric machine booster
13 – 1K13 sight
14 - 1A40-1 targeting complex

Edited by Harkonnen, 14 January 2006 - 1632 PM.


#2 Xonitex

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1710 PM

Thanks, Harkonnen! I know someone on this board has made animated 3D models of the autoloaders of the T-72 and the T-64/T-80. Is it dejawolf? Anyways, could someone post a link to those?

#3 bad-dice

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1758 PM

That certainly helps to colour some of the grey areas.

You imply T-64/80B can fire the guided missile while moving. Is this at full speed, half or very slow?

Thanks

Rob

#4 Harkonnen

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1759 PM

That certainly helps to colour some of the grey areas.

You imply T-64/80B can fire the guided missile while moving. Is this at full speed, half or very slow?

Thanks

Rob

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30 km/h but it may depend on terrain

#5 Rickshaw

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1810 PM

Would it be possible for you to provide the diagrams with translated labels?

What are the three shadow silouhettes in the second diagram on the right? Projected vehicles?

#6 Daniel Papp

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1850 PM

Harkonnen,

when did the T-64 (115mm) and the T-64A vesion (125mm) and the T-72 appear? Did T-72 have 125mm gun from the beginning?

#7 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 1914 PM

Many T-64 were equipped with the TPD-2-49. Still in the year 1992 I sat in Schwerin/Germany in a T-64 with the TPD-2-49.
A number of T-64 had nevertheless also the FCS with the sight 1G21?

#8 Rick Griest

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 2259 PM

So Stephan, did you ever range using the TPD-2-49? How long did it take, how accurate, etc. By the way, your T-64 site is really good. thanks.
Rick

#9 Jim Warford

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 2329 PM

Harkonnen; great topic...good work. I have a few questions:

1. Wasn't the T-64A known as the Object 434 (not Ob. 439)?

2. While some T-64As were upgraded with more advanced fire control systems including LRFs eventually, the first T-64s to have the LRF were the T-64B right?

3. While you've already mentioned that the T-90A is the welded-turret version of the T-90S/T-90M used by the Russian Army, did you leave the T-90S off your chart since it is intended for export?

4. What is the Object 178?

5. IIRC, the Object 447 is the Ukrainian Molot...correct? What can you tell us about this tank...do you have news about its status?

#10 Harkonnen

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0430 AM

Wasn't the T-64A known as the Object 434 (not Ob. 439)?

No, 439 is V-type diesel version of T-64 made by Kharkiv design bureau for production in Niznii Taagil.
But they did not want to produce it and developed the tank from they “line” of development.
Only 3 o. 439 were produced. They were called o. 173 according to Tagil’s index.

While some T-64As were upgraded with more advanced fire control systems including LRFs eventually, the first T-64s to have the LRF were the T-64B right?


Yes. The T-64A featured TPD-2-1, TPD-2-49 and then TPD-K1

did you leave the T-90S off your chart since it is intended for export?

No export version showed though the Russian line for mass production of welded turrets appeared mainly due to full scale Indian contract.

What is the Object 178?


It is full scale T-72 series development which first featured welded turret (but not the same as T-90C/A) and a completely new hull and a new gun with new types of ammunition. The protection of the sides were greatly increased, the tank featured various experimental diesels also as gas turbine.

#11 Harkonnen

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0431 AM

Harkonnen,

when did the T-64 (115mm) and the T-64A vesion (125mm) and the T-72 appear? Did T-72 have 125mm gun from the beginning?


Yes, T-72 initially appeared with 125 mm gun.

#12 Irwin_Rommel

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0453 AM

Thanks, Harkonnen!  I know someone on this board has made animated 3D models of the autoloaders of the T-72 and the T-64/T-80.  Is it dejawolf?  Anyways, could someone post a link to those?

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http://www.dejawolf....lery/t72M1.html

see the link at the bottom of the page

#13 Harkonnen

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0517 AM

http://www.dejawolf....lery/t72M1.html

see the link at the bottom of the page

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Why no other pages of tanks open on thet page?

#14 Irwin_Rommel

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0539 AM

Why no other pages of tanks open on thet page?

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I think he is still preparing the pages, but the M113 and that German tank killer pages open.

#15 DRW

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0807 AM

Good posting, very informative.

I am very interested in the development of the one labled 640 and what appears to be the predecessor. I believe these are refered to as the "Black Eagle". It is my understanding that they are not in production and not scheduled to be fielded due to funding issues. Rumors have it the Russians are trying to export it in order to raise the funding for their own production. How accurate is that? I am also greatly curous about the fire control system and the loader mechanics.

#16 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0848 AM

So Stephan, did you ever range using the TPD-2-49?  How long did it take, how accurate, etc.  By the way, your T-64 site is really good.  thanks.
    Rick

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Measuring takes only some seconds. The middle error was with 3%. The quality of the gunner and the current view conditions are crucial.
I was not trained no more at the TPD-2-49. The east german army NVA had only T-72 with the TPD-K1 (LRF). Before it a test series with TPD-2-49 was bought.

#17 Harkonnen

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0902 AM

Good posting, very informative.

I am very interested in the development of the one labled 640 and what appears to be the predecessor.


There are 2 types of future tank basicly known as Back Eagle - 1-st is Unified Turret ussed for upgrade existing tanks like T-80 with anti tandem Kaktus ERA

2-nd is a cjompletely new tank o 640 with the similar looking but completely different turret. The drawing can explain the difference.

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#18 Jim Warford

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0933 AM

No, 439 is V-type diesel version of T-64 made by Kharkiv design bureau for production in Niznii Taagil. But they did not want to produce it and developed the tank from they “line” of development.

So, the production T-64A with the flat (opposed-piston) Kharkov engine was the Object 434...right?

It is full scale T-72 series development which first featured welded turret (but not the same as T-90C/A) and a completely new hull and a new gun with new types of ammunition. The protection of the sides  were greatly increased, the tank featured various experimental diesels also as gas turbine.

I remember reading about a welded-turret variant of the T-72 years ago...are any photos available? Are you saying that it was put into production or was it a prototype only?

Any info on the Molot? What info is available regarding the relationship between the Molot and the T-95?

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#19 Harkonnen

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 0954 AM

So, the production T-64A with the flat (opposed-piston) Kharkov engine was the Object 434...right?

432 - T-64
434 - Т-64A

432 (T-64) with V-diesel - 436
434 (T-64A) with V-diesel (V-45) - 438 (later renamed 439)

It is full scale T-72 series development which first featured welded turret (but not the same as T-90C/A) and a completely new hull and a new gun with new types of ammunition. The protection of the sides  were greatly increased, the tank featured various experimental diesels also as gas turbine.



I remember reading about a welded-turret variant of the T-72 years ago...are any photos available? Are you saying that it was put into production or was it a prototype only?

No it is not T-72 with welded-turret, it is a tank based on T-72 with new HULL and new turret, not mentioning the new gun and autoloader...
Photos are not awailible for reliese. You may look at the drawing.

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Any info on the Molot? What info is available regarding the relationship between the Molot and the T-95?


The tank prototypes ware ready in 87, then it gous several modification and final SSSR broke up. The technolagy was exchanged with Russia. The trials continued up to 2000 ... later information is not known.

#20 Charles

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 1216 PM

No it is not T-72 with welded-turret, it is a tank based on T-72 with new HULL and new turret, not mentioning the new gun and autoloader...
Photos are not awailible for reliese. You may look at the drawing.

Harkonnen,
Thank you for the brilliant diagrammes. Very interesting thread.
Would the drawing of the Tank based on the T-72 be the T-72 with the 120mm smoothbore?. It look's similar to the photo someone posted a few weeks back.

Thank you

Charles




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