Jump to content


Photo

Chieftain Questions


  • Please log in to reply
743 replies to this topic

#701 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 02 July 2017 - 1152 AM

Thank you Jim.

 

Incidentally, the bottom who are the same as in Bobs book. Im not sure they have been published elsewhere.



#702 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,873 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 July 2017 - 2144 PM

Thank you Jim.

 

Incidentally, the bottom who are the same as in Bobs book. Im not sure they have been published elsewhere.

 

I don' t know their history, but I found these on the Net somewhere...



#703 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 04 July 2017 - 0454 AM

Think Bob said he found them at the PRO, to possibly the came from a similar sources to the man doing the evaluation on the captured examples above.

 

 

Ive read somewhere that it was illegal to provide any equipment to the Iraqis to make the tanks offensive systems operate. For example, we couldnt sell ammunition or spare parts for any part of the fire control systems. But that you COULD sell them spare parts to make the engines work, spare tracks, that kind of thing. Which really has a Whitehall kind of feel to it really.



#704 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 06 July 2017 - 1218 PM

_rP5TTyDYmA.jpg
a_PxgSrETjY.jpg
ATR2, with FCT turret
mAYEve94Ik8.jpg
AVsteIdvlS4.jpg
ATR 2 turret on trailer


#705 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 07 July 2017 - 0239 AM

THATS whre ive seen that turret before! It was on WSD parked outside Bovington in the mid 90's. Rather stupidly I didnt take a photograph.

http://arcaneafvs.co...4601_mbt80.html



#706 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 08 September 2017 - 1416 PM

a5wqqZ2o8n0.jpg

does Challenger 1 and 2 have same armor vs KE at frontal side modules ?  central module judging by photos have thick outer plate, but side modules have only 30-40mm outer plate and it doesn't look like it have same level of protection as central module?

 

drj_XtvOYCA.jpg

some prototype CR1 and early tank have visible chamfered plates 


Edited by Wiedzmin, 08 September 2017 - 1606 PM.


#707 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0156 AM

Bear in mind, that was a non armoured version. You can tell by the mounts for the weights they fitted on it to ballast the vehicle down.

 

Wonder if this is the one in my trade brochure painted in desert sand? There certainly seems remnants of it on '54.



#708 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0225 AM

all CR1 prototypes are non armoured ? because each one of them have this chamfered central frontal plate if i'm not mistaken   


Edited by Wiedzmin, 09 September 2017 - 0226 AM.


#709 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0232 AM

The first 30 were if memory serves. The give away is the SP number. That and they are not mounting TOGs., and the smoke discharger points are at the turret edge rather than at the middle as later. The first production machines had the TOGS box mounted, but didnt get the system mounted until a few years later when supply caught up with production. They were after all fitting it to Chieftain around the same time also.

 

They had a batch made for service trials in West Germany, and I think they were all the ones without TOG's. 30 or so, cant be sure of the year but it would be about 82/83 timeframe, before the production machines arrived. This I think must be one of them, unless its a trial vehicle fitted with Chobham. I cant think why they would do that and not have the TOGs cuttout because they must already have made the decision to fit it by that point.

 

 

Id be happy for someone to correct me on them not being armoured, but I dont believe so. I THINK the first armoured ones would have been the TOG's fitted ones. But im no authority or anything. :)


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 09 September 2017 - 0235 AM.


#710 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0234 AM

The give away for them being non armoured is a red triangle being fitted on them. I cant see one on any of those photos, but then they are rather beat up.



#711 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 09 September 2017 - 0359 AM

http://preservedtank...x?UniqueID=2437

not "SP" but without TOGS



#712 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 09 September 2017 - 1319 PM

THAT one would appear to be fully armoured. The  give away is the central location of the smoke dischargers, and that the brace for the front mudguards and headlights are all like a production tank.

 

The key line is this,

“Service history of 94 KC 38. This particular vehicle was manufactured as a prototype, and then was added to the Army’s fleet of training Challengers in 1991.'

 

That date is interesting, because at that particular point most of the Army's Challenger1 production tanks were hors de combat because they had been stripped for parts for the 1991 war on Iraq. So the prototypes, or at least some of them, would seem to have been bought back in a military role. Possibly that is when it got a military registration.

 

Ill have a look and see if I can find the Haynes book, there is a list in the back of all survivors, and im wondering if it might list what this vehicle was before they changed the registration.



#713 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 09 September 2017 - 1323 PM

thanks.

 

btw, i read about 110mm gun, but also find info about 115mm british tank gun project, any info ?:)



#714 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 10 September 2017 - 0346 AM

Ive personally never heard of it. Perhaps it was the Royal Ordnance contract to make 115mm tubes for the Egyptian Army in the 1980's? I think they wanted a life extension on their T62s, and didnt really want to go to the Soviet Union to ask for parts.



#715 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 10 September 2017 - 0830 AM

Nf-u_LlCcWU.jpg

found this on some FB page, TNA DEFE 15/1102



#716 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 10 September 2017 - 0855 AM

Intresting, wonder whats the date of that

 

It may just be a document to thrash out possible configurations, not options they were actually going to build. Ive a comparision document comparing replacements for Chieftain, and its pretty clear some of them are just in there as filler to look at alternatives other nations have or are going to build. For example, it has alternatives that cover the standard Chieftain with no improvements (which was not an option as the report suggested) Aluminium Chieftain (which was never a serious option) , Chobham Chieftain (which was an option for a while) JagdChieftain (which we pretty much binned when we broke the tank program with the Germans) MBT-80 (which even in 1978 must have looked unlikely to ever be built), an alternative 1500 horsepower tank (not sure where they were getting that one from, cant be leopard 2 cos it still had a rifle) and what appears to be a concept based on Shir2, which we actually bought as Challenger 1.

 

Very good find you have there. You realise it actually has estimates of projected 120mm guns? Finding anything on 120mm gun performance is kind of like finding a pair of Elvis's underpants on ebay. If thats your kind of thing of course. :)

 

Ill look that out on Challenger 1 book, been very tardy today.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 10 September 2017 - 0859 AM.


#717 Przezdzieblo

Przezdzieblo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,878 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Warsaw

Posted 12 September 2017 - 0840 AM

 

found this on some FB page, TNA DEFE 15/1102

 

See some earlier discussion on that data --> click



#718 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 12 September 2017 - 0853 AM

Dear God that takes me back. Before I was purged. :D



#719 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Welcome to the new world disorder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 40,749 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Elephants from the wrong end

Posted 17 September 2017 - 0909 AM

Re that Challenger 1 you were asking about. I cant find that actual one in the book, but I did note that it says at the end that they DID rebadge prototypes (IE SP Registrations) with military registrations. Its not very clear whether they would have been chobham armoured or not. It did say one interesting thing, that there are 3 Challenger 1s unaccounted for, which seems to be due to it not being very clear quite how many they reregistered from the prototype numbers, and some tanks also being reutilized in the Challenger 2 prototype programme.

 

Anyway, not sure if that helps or not, but it does illustrate how much chaos the MOD is capable of creating.



#720 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 17 September 2017 - 0950 AM

british tank programs very similar to soviet, in some directions :D

 

thank you 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users