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Uk Surges Ahead With Challenger 2 Upgrade


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#21 urbanoid

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 0755 AM

Than you'll need the Turks in Crimea, so it's just like the last time. :P

 

ETA: And Italians


Edited by urbanoid, 22 January 2016 - 0756 AM.


#22 Panzermann

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 0803 AM


...And HESH has proven to be highly effective despite being outdated at its primary mission of blowing up crunchies and opening doors...
 

There is a zero things HESH does that modern multi-mode (superquick/delay/prox) HE does not. Other than having god awful trajectory and piss poor fragmentation pattern.
Not to forget a hardened tip to penetrate mud huts or clay walls to better blow them apart. Maybe even penetrate a BMP and blow it to pieces.

HESH had its times, but these are past.

Edited by Panzermann, 22 January 2016 - 0804 AM.


#23 Colin

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 0813 AM

HESH  was well liked by our crews in Afghanistan for taking out grapehuts 



#24 bojan

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 0857 AM

Yes, it was reasonably good for some applications, question is is it worth poor trajectory and poor fragmentation pattern. Even compared to '70s 125mm HE it is a loser, nevermind something newer.



#25 bojan

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 0900 AM

... Maybe even penetrate a BMP and blow it to pieces.

 

Delay fused 125mm HE does exactly that, as evidenced in Ukraine. It would also do that to almost any IFV in service ATM. 125mm delay fused can penetrate about 50mm of steel w/o problem and cause crack reliably on up the 90mm thick steel plates.


Edited by bojan, 22 January 2016 - 0904 AM.


#26 Sovngard

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 0956 AM

There is a zero things HESH does that modern multi-mode (superquick/delay/prox) HE does not. Other than having god awful trajectory and piss poor fragmentation pattern.

 
Fun fact : the GPR-PD-T 40 mm high-explosive round of the CT40 gun is classified as a HESH ammunition.

Edited by Sovngard, 22 January 2016 - 0957 AM.


#27 Simon Tan

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1001 AM

Well, you will need main battle tanks to counter the European ones after Brexit. Especially now there is a Chunnel.



#28 Old ROF

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1137 AM

 

120mm smoothbore? Never going to happen. HM Spacebourne Armoured Corps will have rifled rail guns to fire HESH rounds from their hovertanks while colonizing worlds in the Orion Nebula. ;)


Actually some years ago a Rh120 in a Challenger 2 mantlet was test fired in Unterlüß.

Photos somewhere hidden in an old Challenger thread here, that I cannot find at the moment.

 

Question is, what is the best that can be done with the limitations of the current system to get around rebuidling the ammunition storage for fixed cartrdiges?

 

 

Actually this is a common misconception. The actual ordnance fitted was the Challenger Hybrid Ordnance (CHORD) gun. This was specifically manufactured and was (size-wise) basically the CHARM L30 barrel modified with the Rh 120mm L/55 internals adjusted to suit a modified Rh Smoothbore breech as required by the MOD. It was just fortunate that Rheinmetal had developed their own L/55 upgrade to their own L/44 ordnance. Hence the confusion. The standard Rh smoothbore will not fit the Challenger cradle. The size and bearing configurations are too defferent.



#29 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1144 AM

Meh, just change turrets.  Ammo in bustle, 120mm smoothbore L55.  Problem solved, next problem.  S/F....Ken M



#30 Walter_Sobchak

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1228 PM

Meh, just change turrets.  Ammo in bustle, 120mm smoothbore L55.  Problem solved, next problem.  S/F....Ken M

Well, any excuse to goof around with my model collection.

 

"Challybrams"

challybrams.jpg

 

"Challypard"

challypard.jpg



#31 Damian

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1459 PM

The M1A1's or M1A2's turret would fit Challenger 2's hull better simply because it have a large ammo storage in the bustle for 34 or 36 rounds depending on the used ammo racks (odler or newer).

 

Leopard 2 turret will store only 15 rounds.



#32 Sovngard

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1513 PM


"Challybrams"


"Challypard"


The Challeclerc is missing !


Edited by Sovngard, 22 January 2016 - 1513 PM.


#33 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1608 PM

 

"Challybrams"


"Challypard"


The Challeclerc is missing !

 

 

Why would David Cameron pay to unmothball a French turret production line instead of buying American?  Buying from the US would be cheaper and would be more popular domestically.  Plus the M1's turret is just plain better.



#34 Colin

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1727 PM

 

... Maybe even penetrate a BMP and blow it to pieces.

 

Delay fused 125mm HE does exactly that, as evidenced in Ukraine. It would also do that to almost any IFV in service ATM. 125mm delay fused can penetrate about 50mm of steel w/o problem and cause crack reliably on up the 90mm thick steel plates.

 

when they replaced the Leopard C2 with the Leo2A6M, in Afghanistan they were underwhelmed by the  smoothbores HE alternative compared to the effect of the 105mm HESH on the hard structures in the region. I understood they were working on a HESH like round for the smoothbore, but not sure were that is or still alive?



#35 bojan

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1900 PM

...when they replaced the Leopard C2 with the Leo2A6M, in Afghanistan they were underwhelmed by the  smoothbores HE alternative compared to the effect of the 105mm HESH on the hard structures in the region. I understood they were working on a HESH like round for the smoothbore, but not sure were that is or still alive?

 

Did Canadians get proper multi-mode HE for 120mm or used "HEDP" (read HEAT) for anti-personnel?

 

Smoothbore HESH will not work proper, muzzle velocity is too low for effective long range fin stabilization.


Edited by bojan, 22 January 2016 - 1901 PM.


#36 sabotready15

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 1901 PM

 

Meh, just change turrets.  Ammo in bustle, 120mm smoothbore L55.  Problem solved, next problem.  S/F....Ken M

Well, any excuse to goof around with my model collection.

 

"Challybrams"

challybrams.jpg

 

"Challypard"

challypard.jpg

 

"Challybrams" The perfect match!  ;)


Edited by sabotready15, 22 January 2016 - 1902 PM.


#37 Walter_Sobchak

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 2014 PM

 

"Challybrams"


"Challypard"


The Challeclerc is missing !

 

Here you go, the Challyclerc.

 

20160122_195523_resized.jpg

 

And if we want to get really silly, here is the Challymaus.

 

20160122_195622_resized.jpg



#38 Corinthian

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 2025 PM

Abrams Mk1. Like Apache Mk1. With Enforcer RWS and APS.

#39 Corinthian

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 2028 PM

So, what do folks here think the Challenger 2 needs most?


Funding.

And numbers.

#40 Panzermann

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 2055 PM

IIRC some years ago Nexter was offering a Leclerc derived turret for sale as upgrade for older hulls. T-21?

edit: T-21 it was www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18468

Why not a Yatagan turret to support the new ukrainian friends? 120 mm smoothbore, bustle storage. Yeah I know they have enough problems getting their orders filled at the moment.



As a boy I had an assortment of cheap green plastic tanks of roughly H0 size to put on the flat cars of my toy trains. I often mixed and matched turrets and hulls. A Panzer IV turret on Patton hull looks silly. :D

Edited by Panzermann, 22 January 2016 - 2058 PM.





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