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What Is A "battle Rifle" Or "battlefield Rifle"?


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#61 seahawk

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Posted 25 July 2019 - 1024 AM

The G3 had about 4 MOA as QC requirement, but the G3s that I encountered in service were vastly better than 4 MOA.

It's been a long time, but I suppose 2 MOA was probably normal.

 

If you get one produced in Germany and that has not been shredded by conscripts for decades that should be easy. The A3 ZF were normal A3s supplied with the 4x optic. Mounting the optic and adjusting it was up to the user.


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#62 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 25 July 2019 - 1538 PM

By the time you get an M14 setup right and performing decently, you will have spent more money than if you bought an AR10 type in the first place and have a less effective and durable tool.  

 

There is a good use for the M14's, other than selling to the public to recover tax dollars; equip your right wing death squads with them, then go out and purge all the idiot pogues and bureaucrats who suggested issuing them.  S/F....Ken M 


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#63 Simon Tan

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 0129 AM

Why are you arguing for crap 50s tech?
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#64 shep854

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 0726 AM

Why are you arguing for crap 50s tech?

Not crap, but indeed obsolescent.  When it was all that was available, it's what got used.

A follow-on question would be, are the reported problems with AR-pattern 7.62 rifles really hardware, or software?


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#65 shep854

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 0733 AM

Make of this what you will...despite its faults, I had no difficulty hitting black at 300yd with an issue M14 back in '75, and it was the first time I shot a centerfire rifle.  NOTE how close together the two 500yd hits are:


Edited by shep854, 26 July 2019 - 0734 AM.

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#66 urbanoid

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 0743 AM

By the time you get an M14 setup right and performing decently, you will have spent more money than if you bought an AR10 type in the first place and have a less effective and durable tool.  

 

There is a good use for the M14's, other than selling to the public to recover tax dollars; equip your right wing death squads with them, then go out and purge all the idiot pogues and bureaucrats who suggested issuing them.  S/F....Ken M 

 

Arm bureaucrats with M14s and RWDS with AR10s and let them fight. And maybe make it a reality show, the ad revenue would be YUUUUGE!


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#67 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 0757 AM

 

Why are you arguing for crap 50s tech?

Not crap, but indeed obsolescent.  When it was all that was available, it's what got used.

A follow-on question would be, are the reported problems with AR-pattern 7.62 rifles really hardware, or software?

 

 

Back in the 90's, when there was the wholesale replacement of M14 pattern rifles with AR15 pattern rifles in NRA competition, there was a push into AR10 type match rifles because people luv them the 7.62x51, because they're mentally stunted, insecure, servile goons who can't think for themselves.  Loading the 7.62x51 with heavy 190gn+ bullets where it starts to perform well, beats the living Hell out of the M14 platform, and doesn't make the AR type very happy either without adjustable gas regulator.  There were a lot of teething problems, as should be expected.  However they have been overcome by this point.  Also at this point, the smart thing to do is to use a 6.5 Creedmore in the AR10 platform, since it performs so much better than the 7.62x51.  

 

In the bolt gun area, I currently like the 6.5 PRC, and if I wasn't so committed to the 7mm platforms I would get one.  I may well sell off some hunting rifles, and get a Ruger Precision 6.5 PRC, because that's a very nice entry level setup.  S/F....Ken M


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#68 shep854

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 1457 PM

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.


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#69 bojan

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 1655 PM

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.

 

Very slow ones, since consensus about 1st bolded bit was reached by everyone with above room temperature IQ 50+ years ago. :D


Edited by bojan, 26 July 2019 - 1656 PM.

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#70 shep854

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 1720 PM

 

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.

 

Very slow ones, since consensus about 1st bolded bit was reached by everyone with above room temperature IQ 50+ years ago. :D

 

Yep, letting folks know these guys aren't fanbois.  The discussion moves around different subjects, with good war stories.  PLUS, the old blasters are still being used in some places, so applicable information is still useful.  

At least they're up front about being 'nerds' .:P


Edited by shep854, 26 July 2019 - 1722 PM.

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#71 Panzermann

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 0907 AM

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.

Very slow ones, since consensus about 1st bolded bit was reached by everyone with above room temperature IQ 50+ years ago. :D


More like more than a century ago. Fedorov Avtomat, the various Winchester self loaders, all the experiments inbetween the wars...
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#72 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 0924 AM

 

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.

 

Very slow ones, since consensus about 1st bolded bit was reached by everyone with above room temperature IQ 50+ years ago. :D

 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people with sub room temperature IQs were subsequently in influential positions, and occasionally still are


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#73 Panzermann

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1001 AM

 

 

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.

 

Very slow ones, since consensus about 1st bolded bit was reached by everyone with above room temperature IQ 50+ years ago. :D

 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people with sub room temperature IQs were subsequently in influential positions, and occasionally still are

 

 

The turkish reasoning seems to be that they are happy with their MKE made G3A7 rifles, so modernizing it is the logical step forward. Also they have generally much longer open space to cover than in Europe. But true, some fudd with muh .30 caliber knockdown power is probably involved as well.

 

In smaller numbers for special purposes the Turkish army and police have had 556 rifles in service for decades as well. MKE made HK33 or imported M16 derivatives and others.


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#74 Dawes

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1059 AM

Haven't heard much about Turkey's MPT-76, although (presumably) it's seen combat use by now.


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#75 Simon Tan

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 1016 AM

The only issues with Westrom 'AR-10' came from using crappy M14 mags due to the AWB. Original ArmaliteAR-10 waffles from the 50s and 60s worked great after a spring replacement but they were as unobtanium as SR-25 mags during the AWB. Magpul PMAG20LR were the first affordable and reliable SR-25 pattern mags and when they came out, almost all the problems went away.

 

One of the significant developments that made .308 ARs better precision platforms was Bill Geissele's triggers. I met him when he was pretty much making them himself and we were so impressed that we contracted to take his entire production. People like him, the guys at Magpul, John Noveske etc. all transformed the AR at the sunset of AWB into the open architecture of today. 


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#76 Chris Werb

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 1253 PM

How did the AWB lead ot the use of M14 mags, Simon?


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#77 Panzermann

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 1343 PM

How did the AWB lead ot the use of M14 mags, Simon?

 

Not simon, but surplus M14 magazines were available and legal. And (relatively) cheap. So they opted for the M14 magazines, because those were avaibale.


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#78 sunday

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 1353 PM

 

 

 

5 hours plus of discussion, including combat vets and contractors.  The consensus is that 'battle rifles' are outdated, and the US Army's recent consideration of going back to 7.62 NATO was a loser.  It's a great discussion to fill in slow times.

 

Very slow ones, since consensus about 1st bolded bit was reached by everyone with above room temperature IQ 50+ years ago. :D

 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people with sub room temperature IQs were subsequently in influential positions, and occasionally still are

 

 

The turkish reasoning seems to be that they are happy with their MKE made G3A7 rifles, so modernizing it is the logical step forward. Also they have generally much longer open space to cover than in Europe. But true, some fudd with muh .30 caliber knockdown power is probably involved as well.

 

In smaller numbers for special purposes the Turkish army and police have had 556 rifles in service for decades as well. MKE made HK33 or imported M16 derivatives and others.

 

 

Up in the mountains, if the opposition in the next crest has PKMs and SVDs, then better you have something in 7.62, or truly great close air support.


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#79 BJE

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 1355 PM

If the opposition uses LMG you should use your own LMG, not try to outshoot them with assualt rifles.


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#80 sunday

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 1414 PM

If the opposition uses LMG you should use your own LMG, not try to outshoot them with assualt rifles.

 

Of course, and that is what the book says. Sometimes, however, the opposition has logistics that enable them to use a high number of LMGs.


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