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#41 Murph

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 2213 PM

Surprising that the manifesto gunman was taken alive, considering the firepower that was assembled in response, and their penchant for saving the last bullet for themselves.

That suprises me as well.  But this is Texas, and he will get the best legal representation that the taxpayers can provide when they charge him with Capital Murder.  


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#42 Der Zeitgeist

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 2347 PM

I never understood why these guys bother with writing a manifesto themselves when they could just go to TankNet and copy-paste one of E5Ms posts from here.


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#43 rmgill

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0041 AM

 

The only way to cut down on deaths is to somehow plant their asses as fast as possible. There's too much upside to giving the world the middle finger by going out in a blaze of glory and innocent blood to think this will end anytime soon. I'll be interested to hear how they captured him without shooting him to pieces.

 


Also, stop publicizing their names in grand glowing letters. 


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#44 rmgill

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0043 AM

I never understood why these guys bother with writing a manifesto themselves when they could just go to TankNet and copy-paste one of E5Ms posts from here.

You should get a job at MSNBC. 


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#45 BansheeOne

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0108 AM

Regarding multiple gunmen - people always report this in the confusion of a shooting. The only instance I can think of where this was actually true, other than proper multi-venue terrorist attacks like Mumbay and Paris, was the original Columbine incident. When I read this about an ongoing event, my immediate conclusion is "nope".

 

I also have to admit that such events only really register with me from about a dozen fatalities up anymore, at least in the US where you have come to kinda expect lesser incidents of this kind as part of your usual news diet. I suspect it's similar for others, and this is part of what's driving the sick competition among shooters for high body counts - if you kill merely a single-digit number of people, you might as well have stayed home because media exposure isn't worth the effort.

 

I also have no realistic near-term recipe against these events - no "ban all guns", no "arm everybody", no "ban hate speech", no "don't report on it", and I'm dubious about perspectives to tackle it as a mental/healthcare problem. In theory any of these might work, but in practice human nature, politics, basic rights and limited ressources will restrict impact, particularly in a society with the size, history and socio-economics of the US. So you accept it with a certain fatalism.


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#46 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0150 AM

Surprising that the manifesto gunman was taken alive, considering the firepower that was assembled in response, and their penchant for saving the last bullet for themselves.

 

Its not uncommon among White supremacists. They figure they are leading a movement, so they have to be alive to inspire. See Anders Brevick, the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooting, or the New Zealand Mosque shootings.

 

https://www.dailymai...s-shooting.html

Just nineteen minutes before the first shots rang out at an El Paso Walmart in what would go on to become the deadliest mass shooting of 2019, the man responsible for the killings allegedly uploaded a twisted and seething anti-immigrant manifesto to an online forum outlining his sickening motives.

The 2,300 word screed, attributed to the author P.Crucius on one website, speaks of a perceived ‘Hispanic invasion of Texas’, a detailed plan to segregate ethnic minorities into separate territories of the country, and expresses a belief that white people will soon be ‘ethnically replaced’.

Authorities say the the suspect behind Saturday’s mass shooting at the Cielo Vista Mall that killed at least 20 and injured 26 more, is the rightful author of the heinous document. 

The suspect has been tentatively identified as 21-year-old Patrick Crusius, of Allen, Texas - a town some 645 miles from the scene of Saturday's massacre.

 'F*** this is going to be so s*** but I can't wait any longer,' the author of the document wrote uploading it to the comment board. 'I'm probably going to die today.'

 

The manifesto, titled ‘The Inconvenient Truth’, begins declaring the imminent shooting to be inspired directly by the shootings of two mosques in Christchurch New Zealand earlier this year, which left 51 people dead.

‘Right now we have a manifesto from this individual - that indicates to some degree - it has a nexus to potential hate crime,’ El Paso Police Chief Greg Allen said in a press conference. 

In the New Zealand killer’s manifesto, the author promoted a white supremacist theory called ‘the great replacement’.

In The Inconvenient Truth, the author voices a similar ideology but insists ‘this attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas’.

‘I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion,’ the author wrote.

The Cielo Vista Mall is a popular shopping destination for people both sides of the US-Mexico border. 

On a weekend the city attracts droves of shoppers from Mexico, including from its Mexican sister city Ciudad Juarez, who flock to the mall and return back across the border with their groceries.

The author says he believes ‘American is rotting from the inside out,’ and speculates that ‘the heavy Hispanic population in Texas’ will make the state ‘a democratic stronghold’ for generations to come.

In addition to stating his ideological beliefs, the author discusses the type of weaponry he will be using in the looming massacre, making reference to an ‘AK47’ rife but insisting he’d rather have used something more powerful.

‘It’s not designed to shoot rounds quickly,’ the author says. ‘So it overheats massively after about 100 shots fired in quick succession.’

In Saturday’s shooting, Crusius is allegedly the man seen in surveillance footage walking in through the front entrance of the Cielo Vista Mall Walmart with an AK47-styled assault rifle.

The gunman, wearing what appears to be ear defenders and cargo pants, first opened fire in the parking lot outside the store, shooting and killing 'locals that were fundraising outside the Walmart selling water. Children and adults.'

He then walked through the front door in a calm and confident state, as if he was 'on a mission', a witness said.

The twenty-minute massacre that followed would go on to become the eighth deadliest in US history.

 

 

 

 

Do you know what I think they should do? I think they should go inside one of these places after a shooting, show the bodies, show the gore, show the cranial matter, live on TV. And rather then, maybe, politicians would get off their ass when the public uproar made them do something. Its the very censorship by the media that doesnt want to show anything horrifying that is making this continual process of mass murder acceptable. They are even advertising for it to proceed, by making it look halfway acceptable by censoring the gore, and citing the name of the murderer ever 5 minutes.

 

Do I think it will happen? No, of course it wont. Because this is less about informing the public than grabbing an audience share.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 04 August 2019 - 0151 AM.

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#47 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0205 AM

There is a genuinely interesting (and terrifying) thread on Bellingcat on the posters manifesto. Ill leave you all to make your own conclusions.

https://www.bellingc...tion-of-terror/


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#48 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0349 AM

I'm surprised no one has commented on the sound moderator on the S&W 686 6" or similar. Odd.
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#49 BansheeOne

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0352 AM

Its not uncommon among White supremacists. They figure they are leading a movement, so they have to be alive to inspire. See Anders Brevick, the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooting, or the New Zealand Mosque shootings.

 

[...]


Do you know what I think they should do? I think they should go inside one of these places after a shooting, show the bodies, show the gore, show the cranial matter, live on TV. And rather then, maybe, politicians would get off their ass when the public uproar made them do something. Its the very censorship by the media that doesnt want to show anything horrifying that is making this continual process of mass murder acceptable. They are even advertising for it to proceed, by making it look halfway acceptable by censoring the gore, and citing the name of the murderer ever 5 minutes.

 

Do I think it will happen? No, of course it wont. Because this is less about informing the public than grabbing an audience share.

 

Also the guy who shot up a black church congregation in Charleston, VA in 2015.

 

Frankly, suggestions to show the carnage of attacks would generally be playing to the strategy of this kind of attacker. Same when right-wingers demand that the results of Islamist attacks, videos of beheadings should be run uncensored to make people "aware of what we're facing"; what they really want is to generate hate, which is exactly what Islamists want to trigger that big clash of civilizations.* White supremacists have likewise been explicit in their manifestos that they want to bring about a race war. The calculation is always that outrage by the attacked group will cause them to commit atrocities of their own, which will cause your own camp to retaliate, then it escalates into a decisive war of extermination, then you win.

 

Also, the Bellingcat piece is indeed interesting - but it, too, helps spreading the name and the aims of the attacker. You can't really escape that conundrum in informing the public.

 

 

* As an aside, at this point I have only a faint smile for people going on about how Europe is succumbing to Islamist terrorism. Between 34 and 84 people got killed just in the three most bloody mass shootings in the US each year since the Paris attacks; and between El Paso and the two guys who shot up their workplaces in Virginia Beach and Aurora, IL back in May and February respectively and a bar in Dayton while I was typing, 2019 is already in that bracket again.


Edited by BansheeOne, 04 August 2019 - 0403 AM.

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#50 Yama

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0443 AM

Surprising that the manifesto gunman was taken alive, considering the firepower that was assembled in response, and their penchant for saving the last bullet for themselves.

 
Its not uncommon among White supremacists. They figure they are leading a movement, so they have to be alive to inspire. See Anders Brevick, the Pittsburgh Synagogue shooting, or the New Zealand Mosque shootings.


Yes, it's embittered 'payback' types, like school and workplace shooters who want to off themselves in the process. For them it is more like expanded suicide.
White supremacists think that 'their side' will eventually win, they will be released and treated as war heroes and they get to live rest of their lives with 21 supermodels.

Was that garlic fest shooter in California also some white supremacist dude? I wonder if there is some organization or connection.

Edited by Yama, 04 August 2019 - 0443 AM.

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#51 DB

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0453 AM

As Banshee noted, you have a second attack - Dayton Ohio, with multiple dead and injured. Reports here are that the shooter was killed by police.


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#52 Paul G.

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0454 AM

As Banshee noted, you have a second attack - Dayton Ohio, with multiple dead and injured. Reports here are that the shooter was killed by police.


9 killed, 16 wounded.
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#53 MiloMorai

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0505 AM

As Banshee noted, you have a second attack - Dayton Ohio, with multiple dead and injured. Reports here are that the shooter was killed by police.

https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp


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#54 BansheeOne

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0517 AM

Was that garlic fest shooter in California also some white supremacist dude? I wonder if there is some organization or connection.

 

He did reference "Might is Right" which is popular among white supremacists, and raged about hordes of mestizos at the festival online, but the FBI said they couldn't put him into any particular ideological box.

 

The connection between recent right-wing shooters seems the same we've seen with post-al-Qaeda islamists - radicalization on the internet and mutual inspiration by previous examples, not an organization in the conventional sense. Yet it seems not quite correct to call them lone wolves, since they were typically tied to some online network of pertinent sites; Bellingcat mentions 4chan and particularly 8chan for the right-wingers. At some point they pen some more-or-less original manifesto and go off, just like MacJihadis tape a video swearing allegiance to the IS and declaring their personal war on the Jews and crusaders.


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#55 JasonJ

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0521 AM

Reported now that 10 dead in the second one. So he achieved his double digit body count. (nevermind, the 10th was the shooter)

 

So sad. RIP to the 9.


Edited by JasonJ, 04 August 2019 - 0522 AM.

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#56 Markus Becker

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0521 AM

 ... but the mall is a gun free zone so nobody law abiding was armed there unless there were on or off duty law enforcement in the building.


*facepalm*
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#57 DB

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0533 AM

It's a shame that the ideological split in the US prevents any level-headed discussion of any ways to deal with this type of occurrence.


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#58 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0539 AM

Reports on the second shooting it would have been worse, but some individual managed to grab the end of the barrel on the rifle. So he then went to a pistol. The guy in El Paso was reportedly wearing body armour if I heard correctly.

 

It strikes me that the media conflates all these incidents into one. That there is one problem and one solution. It strikes me there is a difference between the guys who wake up one day and decide they dont like Mondays (which is an OLD problem and one we all suffer from one way or another) and those being triggered by hate, either White or Islamic. Its very easy to finger all these as loners, but the more you look at them, the white supremacists clearly DO have a network on line, even if it perhaps cannot be categorized as an organization. One thing you can say about 8 Chan, its sure as hell isnt organized. So if you somehow banned all assault rifles, I think people like that would still be swapping plans for bombs online. Or as we saw in the UK, using knives or even in one particular case, a van.

 

Retired FBI guy blaming it all on 'Violent Computer games'. So why did it happen even before there were home computers smartarse?


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 04 August 2019 - 0541 AM.

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#59 Paul G.

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0637 AM

Reports of those concealed carrying in the Walmart. They did not engage because were concerned with:

1. Getting their family to safety

2. Getting shot by police.
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#60 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 August 2019 - 0648 AM

Guy in the other incident was wearing body armour, not the El Paso one, my mistake. He also had a .223 rifle.


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