6297 replies to this topic

[RETAC21]

I have a question on the T-80 and its derivatives. How comes in 1987 there were only a few hundreds (per Lenskii) deployed in Germany? what was the rate of production like?. thanks.

[Harkonnen]

I have a question on the T-80 and its derivatives. How comes in 1987 there were only a few hundreds (per Lenskii) deployed in Germany? what was the rate of production like?. thanks.

What is it per Lenskii ?

There were 2256 T-80 in GSVG. Not including a training and special units (maybe up to 400).

[Jim Warford]

No it is not T-72 with welded-turret, it is a tank based on T-72 with new HULL and new turret, not mentioning the new gun and autoloader...
Photos are not awailible for reliese. You may look at the drawing.



Did this tank ever go into production (beyond testing) and service? Did the main gun actually have the muzzle-brake as shown in the drawing?

[Stefan Kotsch]

This mystery could solve so far nobody. Unfortunately I did not have a cm-tape thereby. 115 or 125 mm, i think 125 mm. It is a T-64 and its gun has also a muzzle brake.

It's not a fake !

Edited by Stefan Kotsch, 09 January 2006 - 1410 PM.

[gnocci]

This mystery could solve so far nobody. Unfortunately I did not have a cm-tape  thereby. 115 or 125 mm, i think 125 mm. It is a T-64 and its gun has also a muzzle brake.

I've seen photos somewhere of tanks "demilitarized" with holes in the barrell. Just a way of making sure the gun barrell could not be used.
Could be the case?

Edit: is i remember right, it was to comply with a legal limitation so the the tank could be handed to civilians, or something like that...

Edited by gnocci, 09 January 2006 - 1416 PM.

[Harkonnen]

Did this tank ever go into production (beyond testing) and service? Did the main gun actually have the muzzle-brake as shown in the drawing?

This tank is not going to service but dessisions tested on it will go.
Yes, the gun has 2-chamber muzzle-brake but it may look slightly different from the drawing.

[Harkonnen]

I've seen photos somewhere of tanks "demilitarized" with holes in the barrell. Just a way of making sure the gun barrell could not be used.
Could be the case?

The suppose gun on this "o. 447" can be used with such "demilitarization"

[Gavin-Phillips]

I remember reading about the object 167 vehicle, a super modified T-62! What's the deal with adding track return rollers?

The chart of Soviet tanks post-1966 is very curious, especially one of the 3 silhouetted vehicles, one of them is obviously the T-95, but whats the bottom one called? Hull silhouette almost looks like its the S-tank with a turreted gun

[RETAC21]

What is it per Lenskii ? 

There were 2256 T-80 in GSVG. Not including a training and special units (maybe up to 400).

Yes. but out of 20.000 or so produced, isn't it? where were the others?

[Harkonnen]

Hull silhouette almost looks like its the S-tank with a turreted gun

It is a new design of Leningrad's Spetsmash KB and the designer of T-80 N.S. Popov.
The forward engine 152 mm armed tank with crew of 2 in the hull middle.

[Harkonnen]

Yes. but out of 20.000 or so produced, isn't it? where were the others?

Do you think Germany is the only place in the world to place T-80? Along with 2.5 + T-80-s there were about the same number of T-64 there.

[gnocci]

The suppose gun on this "o. 447" can be used with such "demilitarization" 

Well, at least it will be easy to spot when it fires

[Stefan Kotsch]

The suppose gun on this "o. 447" can be used with such "demilitarization" 

That cannot be demilitarization. The inside diameter of the muzzle brake is larger than the caliber. The holes are very accurately bored. No, that is a unknown modification of the 125 mm, assumes I.

Edited by Stefan Kotsch, 10 January 2006 - 0352 AM.

[RETAC21]

Do you think Germany is the only place in the world to place T-80? Along with 2.5 + T-80-s there were about the same number of T-64 there.

In 1987? no, there were only 838 T-80s versus 5.558 other tanks, mainly T-64, so if the T-80 was one of the better tanks, intended to replace (or complement?) the T-64 and in production since 1978 (that would be a production of 1.500 per year if in 1990 there were 20.000) I am puzzled as to where they ended up.

[DRW]

It is a new design of Leningrad's Spetsmash KB and the designer of T-80 N.S. Popov.
The forward engine 152 mm armed tank with crew of 2 in the hull middle.

Interesting! I've seen very similar designs for the American FCS program. Is Russia now back to making aircrft that look very close to F-15s, passanger jets that have the concord appearance and so on and tank designs found on the internet as possible western replacement MBTs?

[savantu]

In 1987? no, there were only 838 T-80s versus 5.558 other tanks, mainly T-64, so if the T-80 was one of the better tanks, intended to replace (or complement?) the T-64 and in production since 1978 (that would be a production of 1.500 per year if in 1990 there were 20.000) I am puzzled as to where they ended up.

The USSR wasn't small by any means..

Heck they had 6 Tank armies throughout the cold war while the Brits had 4 divisions and the US 12....

Remember that in the russian way of handling tanks , 99% are mothballed all the time and training is done on a small number of tanks...

With all the economic collapse of 1989 , the Soviet Union produced 3000 MBTs that year...That's T72,T80 and possibly some T64 too.

[Harkonnen]

Interesting! I've seen very similar designs for the American FCS program. Is Russia now back to making aircrft that look very close to F-15s, passanger jets that have the concord appearance and so on and tank designs found on the internet as possible western replacement MBTs?

What do you talking about ? What aircraft very close to F-15s If you have nothing to say better be silient.

[Harkonnen]

In 1987? no, there were only 838 T-80s versus 5.558 other tanks, mainly T-64, so if the T-80 was one of the better tanks, intended to replace (or complement?) the T-64 and in production since 1978 (that would be a production of 1.500 per year if in 1990 there were 20.000) I am puzzled as to where they ended up

838? First you said several hundreds
there were 2256 T-80 and 3990 T-64 A/in GSVG in 1986-87.

[DRW]

What do you talking about ? What aircraft very close to F-15s If you have nothing to say better be silient.

Don't get snappy with me! I'm making an observation that is widely supported. The F-15 enters production quickly followed by a series of Russian aircraft with similar charasteristics and appearances. The Concord is hearlded as a furturistic aircraft that was supposed to change public transportation. Russians spies were identified and covertly given fake blueprints of the Concord. The Russians built their copy but reportedly had numerous problems. There are several other examples of western countries developing an iten to suddenly see an incrediblly resembling copy come out of Russia a few years later. Now we have a picture of a possible Russian MBT that looks like an American FCS design I saw about ten or more years ago. I don't think its just coinsidence. If you can't beat'm, emulate'm.

Lets face it. Russian military has taken a huge number of blows in the last ten years; Iraqi T-72s, The Kursk, Chechnya, and the rusting Black Sea fleet are but a few. The Russians have lost a lot of money on military exports and are trying hard to recover. They are getting some good deals out of Pakistan, China and such but not like in the old days.

[RETAC21]

838?  First you said several hundreds
there were 2256 T-80 and 3990 T-64 A/in GSVG in 1986-87.

What's the source?

Here's what I have:

"Изменение танкового парка ГСВГ/ЗГВ (строевые соединения и части)
на 01.01.87 (штат/в т.ч. факт Т-80) - на 19.Х1.90 (факт)

1-я гв. ТА
9-я тд - 328 (в т.ч. 11 Т-80) - 238 (Т-80)
11-я гв.тд - 328 (в т.ч. 20 Т-80) - 295 (Т-80)
20-ягв.мсд - 271 (-) - 154 (Т-80)
отд.танковый полк - 94 (в т.ч. 9 Т-80) - (-)
всего: 1021 (в т.ч. 40 Т-80) - 687 (Т-80)

2-я гв. ТА
16-я гв. Тд: 328 (в т.ч. 21 Т-80) - 250 (Т-80)
21 -я гв. Мсд: 271 (в т.ч. 94 Т-80) - 155 (Т-80)
94-я гв. Мсд: 271 (в т.ч. 207 Т-80) - 274 (Т-80)
207-я мсд: 271 (-) - 155 (Т-80)
отд. танковый полк: 94 (в т.ч. 16 Т-80) - (-)
всего: 1235 (в т.ч. 338 Т-80) - 834 (в т.ч. 560 Т-80)

3-яОА
7-я гв.тд: 328 (в т.ч. ЮТ-80) - выведена
10-я гв.тд: 328 (в т.ч. 12 Т-80) - 364 (Т-80)
12-я гв. Тд: 328 (в т.ч. 47 Т-80) - выведена
47-я гв. Тд: 328 (-) - 322 (Т-64)
отд. танковый полк: 94 (в т.ч. 7 Т-80) - (-)
всего: 1406 (в т.ч. 76 Т-80) - 686 (в т.ч. 364 Т-80)

8-я гв.ОА
27-я гв. Мед: 271 (в т.ч. 27 Т-80) - 225 (Т-80)
39-я гв. Мсд: 271 (в т.ч. 57 Т-80) - 155 (Т-80)
57-я гв. Мсд: 271 (-) - 256 (Т-80)
79-я гв. Тд: 328 (в т.ч. 37 Т-80) - 322 (Т-80)
отд. танковый полк: 94 (в т.ч. 79 Т-80) - (-)
всего: 1235 (в т.ч. 202 Т-80) - 958 (Т-80)

20-я гв.ОА
25-я тд: 328 (в т.ч. 32 Т-80) - выведена
32-я гв. Тд: 328 (в т.ч. 90 Т-80) - выведена
35-я мсд: 271 (-) - 149 (Т-80)
90-я гв. Тд: 328 (в т.ч. 35 Т-80) - 249 (Т-80)
отд. танковый полк: 94 (в т.ч. 25 Т-80) - (-)
6-я отд. гв. Берлинская бригада: 150 (-) - 141 (Т-64)

всего: 1499 (в т.ч. 182 Т-80) - 539 (в т.ч. 398 Т-80)

Итого в линейных: 6396 (в т.ч. 838 Т-80) - 4024 (в т.ч. 2967 Т-80)

I appreciate your help in reconciling all this.