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#5741 GARGEAN

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 0620 AM

Relict is 4S23 module in special carcass that allows two plate throwing. 4S23 can be (and presumably is, but this is unconfirmed) mounted into old K5 mounts, but this offers little to no extra protection aside proper work against "anti-ERA" munitions like M829A3. 4S24 (which is not Cactus btw)  is indeed initially made for light armored vehicles but can be seen used on turret sides of late 72B3 and 90M.

4S23 in old Kontakt-5 casing is confirmed at least for the T-72B3 obr. 2016.
 
4s23%2Bt-72b3.png
 
Whether 4S23 can defeat "anti-ERA" munitions in the Kontakt-5 casing is hard to say. There's not even any proof that it can do it in the Relikt casing. 
Hm, thanks, interesting pic. As for "anti -ERA" munitions - they mostly work trough not initiating ERA block. 4S23 is made to be much better at initiating.
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#5742 Interlinked

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 0919 AM

Hm, thanks, interesting pic. As for "anti -ERA" munitions - they mostly work trough not initiating ERA block. 4S23 is made to be much better at initiating.

 

Well, there's no proof that Relikt can actually do it. Tandem HEAT warheads that work on the basis of non-initiating defeat could be affected in some way, but M829A3 which you mentioned earlier seems to defeat ERA by having a sort of sacrificial tip that gets detached from the main DU rod by the flying plates of the ERA. Putting more sensitive explosives into the old Kontakt-5 casing would presumably make it initiate more readily, so more of the sacrificial tip gets hit and less of the DU rod is affected.

 

Frankly, I don't have the confidence to say that adding 4S23 to the old Kontakt-5 casing enables it to counteract "anti-ERA" munitions. All I'd say is that there is some kind of improvement in some form.


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#5743 GARGEAN

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 1045 AM

 

Well, there's no proof that Relikt can actually do it. Tandem HEAT warheads that work on the basis of non-initiating defeat could be affected in some way, but M829A3 which you mentioned earlier seems to defeat ERA by having a sort of sacrificial tip that gets detached from the main DU rod by the flying plates of the ERA. Putting more sensitive explosives into the old Kontakt-5 casing would presumably make it initiate more readily, so more of the sacrificial tip gets hit and less of the DU rod is affected.

 

Frankly, I don't have the confidence to say that adding 4S23 to the old Kontakt-5 casing enables it to counteract "anti-ERA" munitions. All I'd say is that there is some kind of improvement in some form.

 

Most, if not all, purpose of creation of 4S23 was in improving its initiation ability. It was done mostly thought adding special composition into explosive, that besides other stuff includes glass microspheres. Only with proper mount 4S23 was turned into two plate throwing Relict.
Sacrificial tip is somewhat of a meme for 829A3: most of its anti-ERA work comes indeed from tip, but in different way: it works at not initiating ERA by continuously creating expanding hole istead of breaking one big at a time. Even if 829A3 have that breaking tip, how it would save rod core from destruction when hitting center of ERA block or above?

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#5744 methos

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 1322 PM

Sacrificial tip is somewhat of a meme for 829A3: most of its anti-ERA work comes indeed from tip,

 

The increased diameter of the penetrator results in a ~67% higher bending stiffness.That will diminish the protection provided by ERA, even if the tip didn't work.


Edited by methos, 03 July 2018 - 1322 PM.

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#5745 GARGEAN

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 1411 PM

 

The increased diameter of the penetrator results in a ~67% higher bending stiffness.That will diminish the protection provided by ERA, even if the tip didn't work.

 

Diminish - definitely. Question is at what degree.


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#5746 Interlinked

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 1427 PM

Most, if not all, purpose of creation of 4S23 was in improving its initiation ability. It was done mostly thought adding special composition into explosive, that besides other stuff includes glass microspheres. Only with proper mount 4S23 was turned into two plate throwing Relict.

 

Sacrificial tip is somewhat of a meme for 829A3: most of its anti-ERA work comes indeed from tip, but in different way: it works at not initiating ERA by continuously creating expanding hole istead of breaking one big at a time. Even if 829A3 have that breaking tip, how it would save rod core from destruction when hitting center of ERA block or above?

 

The explosive compound in 4S23 is just RDX. The increase in sensitivity (without compromising safety) and uniform detonation was achieved by a combination of an aluminium case instead of steel, polymer/glass microspheres, and a steel sheet placed in the middle. It looks like this: aluminium - explosive - steel - explosive - aluminium.

 

I honestly don't see how a steel tip would act as a "hole expander" as you describe. Soviet 125mm APFSDS with steel tips could initiate Kontakt-5 just fine, and I don't doubt that they would also initiate Relikt just fine too. I also don't see why the steel tip would need to be as long as it is described in the ATK patent (>100mm, apparently) if it is supposed to be a "hole expander" since Kontakt-5 and Relikt are both initiated essentially at the moment of impact with the surface of the cover plate. Kontakt-5 uses spall, and Relikt uses the shockwave of the impact (which is faster). How the penetration cavity is formed in the cover plate by the projectile after that initial moment of impact is largely irrelevant. The rate of the expansion of the penetration cavity would barely affect Kontakt-5 and not affect Relikt at all. The only feasible explanation is that the tip is sacrificial, and that its relatively high length is so that the damage is mostly localized to the tip. IMO that's what I can say based on available information. Didn't methos originally spread this "meme" on his blog?

 

Having a "sacrificial tip" would be helpful if the rod impacted the top edge of an ERA block. Less of the main rod would be affected. I don't assume that completely avoiding damage is possible, only that the objective is to minimize the damage.


Edited by Interlinked, 03 July 2018 - 1442 PM.

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#5747 GARGEAN

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 1523 PM

I honestly don't see how a steel tip would act as a "hole expander" as you describe. 

mzvp13q3bs8.jpg

This prevented 4S22 from detonation. And not prevented 4S23 from it.
As for "sacrificial tip" - noone doubts it helps at some margin. But even if lower part of penetrator will be hit by flying plate, it will yaw and possibly break.Not as hardly as, let's say

Spoiler

this 3BM9 that was hit by 4S22 flyer plate. But it still will be degraded in penetration pretty signigicantly. Which is all that needed.


Edited by GARGEAN, 03 July 2018 - 1524 PM.

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#5748 Interlinked

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 2217 PM

 

I honestly don't see how a steel tip would act as a "hole expander" as you describe. 

mzvp13q3bs8.jpg
This prevented 4S22 from detonation. And not prevented 4S23 from it.
As for "sacrificial tip" - noone doubts it helps at some margin. But even if lower part of penetrator will be hit by flying plate, it will yaw and possibly break.Not as hardly as, let's say
Spoiler

this 3BM9 that was hit by 4S22 flyer plate. But it still will be degraded in penetration pretty signigicantly. Which is all that needed.

That tip design is nowhere close to what's seen on the M829A3. The diameter of the tip on that modified 3BM-22 projectile is only 13.8mm or less than half the diameter of the main rod. The tip on M829A3 is the same diameter as the rest of the rod. It is self evident that the diameter of the tip is an important factor based on the fact that this needle-like tip allowed the projectile to defeat Kontakt-5 whereas steel APFSDS with a normal full caliber steel tip could not. The fact that the special needle-like tip is made of steel doesn't seem to be the determining factor at all.

That photo of 3BM-9 yawing appears to show the aftermath of firing the round and then firing a 15mm steel plate to intercept it at a predetermined point, this simulating the flyer plate of Kontakt-5. It's not possible to get any APFSDS to yaw that much after interacting with actual Kontakt-5 as implemented on tanks.


Kontakt-5 depends entirely on a fast-moving head-on type flyer plate to defeat long rod projectiles. It is the least efficient type of flyer plate. The damage won't really be that serious, especially if you have a sacrificial tip of relatively high length. Another reason that Kontakt-5 is limited is because of the working length of the flyer plates. The flyer plate of Relikt is much longer and also narrower. Less working length means less interaction time with the projectile, which is not beneficial.


Edited by Interlinked, 05 July 2018 - 0207 AM.

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#5749 GARGEAN

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 0112 AM

That tip design is nowhere close to what's seen on the M829A3. The diameter of the tip on that modified 3BM-22 projectile is only 13.8mm. The tip on M829A3 is 32mm or something like that, which is the same sort of diameter as the tips observed on older Soviet 125mm APFSDS. It is self evident that the diameter of the tip is an important factor based on the fact that this needle-like tip allowed the projectile to defeat Kontakt-5 whereas steel APFSDS with a normal full caliber steel tip could not. The fact that the special needle-like tip is made of steel doesn't seem to be the determining factor at all.

That photo of 3BM-9 yawing appears to show the aftermath of firing the round and then firing a 15mm steel plate to intercept it at a predetermined point, this simulating the flyer plate of Kontakt-5. It's not possible to get any APFSDS to yaw that much after interacting with actual Kontakt-5 as implemented on tanks.


Kontakt-5 depends entirely on a fast-moving head-on type flyer plate to defeat long rod projectiles. It is the least efficient type of flyer plate. The damage won't really be that serious, especially if you have a sacrificial tip of relatively high length. Another reason that Kontakt-5 is limited is because of the working length of the flyer plates. The flyer plate of Relikt is much longer and also narrower. Less working length means less interaction time with the projectile, which is not beneficial.

You can't really know what tip construction 829A3 have until you look under ballistic tip. And I never mentioned that material of tip is important.
As for photo - it definitely just demonstrational, rod will bite armor much earlier than it will turn that way. Just in same conditions 829A3 would probably show less damage, but will still show some.
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#5750 Interlinked

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0228 AM

You can't really know what tip construction 829A3 have until you look under ballistic tip. And I never mentioned that material of tip is important.

As for photo - it definitely just demonstrational, rod will bite armor much earlier than it will turn that way. Just in same conditions 829A3 would probably show less damage, but will still show some.

 

 

Well, this is currently as close as you can get to looking under the tip. You could speculate that they used the same solution as Soviet engineers 30+ years ago, but the evidence is sparse. It seems that everything described in the ATK patent could very well be showing a very close approximation of the actual M829A3 if not the thing itself.


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#5751 Paul Lakowski

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 1925 PM

Hi guys

 

http://rusnext.ru/news/1531487745

 

Crazy Ivan says this exposes how bad the T-64 was.

 

Don't read Russian , so does this article say that?


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#5752 TTK Ciar

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 2046 PM

Hi guys

http://rusnext.ru/news/1531487745

Crazy Ivan says this exposes how bad the T-64 was.

Don't read Russian , so does this article say that?


I don't read Russian either, but google translate does a pretty good job.

It doesn't so much "expose" that the T-64 is bad. It's more of a character assassination. The opening claim is that the T-64 has always been a bad tank and hasn't gotten better with age. It then makes a variety of detailed claims to this effect, citing mishaps in the eastern ukraine conflict.

It reads to me like a Russian journalist casting FUD on "the enemy's" tank.
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#5753 GARGEAN

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 0232 AM

Bad article, should not be looked at seriously.
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#5754 Wiedzmin

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Posted 22 July 2018 - 1512 PM

wC9KDwuZn24.jpg


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#5755 GARGEAN

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 1000 AM

Another eight of non-existent BMP-2M arrived to Orenburg in Central district. Said to receive 20 more till end of 2018.
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#5756 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 1419 PM

Another eight of non-existent BMP-2M arrived to Orenburg in Central district. Said to receive 20 more till end of 2018.

 

Non-existant in the sense that there's no such model of BMP, that no vehicles arrived though it was announced that they had, or are you mocking someone who said that model did not exist?


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#5757 GARGEAN

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 1508 PM

 

Non-existant in the sense that there's no such model of BMP, that no vehicles arrived though it was announced that they had, or are you mocking someone who said that model did not exist?

 

Mostly last one)


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#5758 Wiedzmin

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 2334 PM

Another eight of non-existent BMP-2M arrived to Orenburg in Central district. Said to receive 20 more till end of 2018.


When you will have photos... at the moment there is only retarded mod.pack with new radio
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#5759 Wiedzmin

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 1348 PM

3TYKhiUMteY.jpg

2SNU6eOkRm8.jpg

 

https://youtu.be/NBP...3Rbo?t=1h14m15s

 

1:14:15 kazakhs almost lost turret after jump 

 

https://youtu.be/qEMrzScMVas?t=24m33s

 

and chinese have same(more or less) at 24:33


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#5760 Chris Werb

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 1425 PM

Another eight of non-existent BMP-2M arrived to Orenburg in Central district. Said to receive 20 more till end of 2018.

When you will have photos... at the moment there is only retarded mod.pack with new radio

"Retarded mod pack with radio?"
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