Jump to content


Photo

Armor of Ukraine


  • Please log in to reply
1854 replies to this topic

#661 Panzermann

Panzermann

    REFORGER '79

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,808 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Teutonistan

Posted 21 April 2014 - 0718 AM

Ukrainian Tank OPLOT-M: Demonstration to the Press. 13th of September 2013. No comments.



#662 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 April 2014 - 2325 PM

 

T-72A over the T-64B and T-80B?            

 

T-72A and T-80B have same 530mm turret front with "sand", T-72A and T-80B turrets have same level of protection.

 

T-80B/BV turret(from "kampfpanzer heute und morgen")

 

T-64A and T-64B have turret with ceramic balls with 430-450mm thickness.

 

 

O.k., let's start with sand...it's logical that the early T-80s used sand as a composite filler and this was in fact confirmed by Nii Stali several years ago. Nii Stali also confirmed that "both standard and export versions of T-72 feature the turret with the same protection level," and "in T-72A turret sand core was used." Additionally, very reliable sources in Finland confirmed (in 2007 IIRC), that official T-72M1 documentation described the turret composite material as sand. While the term "peschanye sterzhni" (sand rods or sand bar), has appeared both in the defense-related press and in books, the reality is most likely based on the appearance of the filled armor cavities (with the tightly confined sand filler), when viewed in profile. It could very well resemble a "bar" within the armor cavity. Regarding the sand itself, a variety of reliable sources confirm that it is simple form sand...the same sand that's used in the turret casting process. According to one source here on Tank Net, the sand would frequently run out of the turret "from penetrating holes." Additionally, one of the T-72M1s evaluated by the Austrian Army (from the former East German Army), confirmed a sand composite filler. This particular T-72M1 was produced in Czechoslovakia in 1987.

 

Perhaps the most interesting thing about all this sand-filled composite armor, is that there have been continuing reports over the years that some T-72M1s are more equal than others. In other words, there is reason to believe that some T-72M1s (depending on where they were produced or perhaps their intended user), used a ceramic filler instead of sand. Unconfirmed information posted here over the years, reports that it was believed that old East German Army T-72M1s used different "inserts" than the T-72M1s bought from the former USSR in the 1980s. One of these reports posted here back in 2000 said that T-72M1s built in the USSR used a ceramic filler while those tanks produced in Czechoslovakia and Poland used a sand filler.

 

So, the question now is this, would the Soviets have forward deployed tanks protected with sand-filled composite armor against front-line NATO forces?                     



#663 alejandro_

alejandro_

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,932 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxfordshire, UK
  • Interests:History, cinema, football, aviation, armour, military history.

Posted 23 April 2014 - 1730 PM

This photo appeared in a report written by Wesley Clark (retired general) and Philip Karver. It was taken in the eastern approaches to Kiev. It is very interesting because it shows a T-80 (probably UD). These tanks are not in service in any front line unit, but in several academies. So far only the T-64 had been deployed. The picture can be seen in the link below. I have reduced the size to be able to upload.

 

http://cryptome.org/...ber-14-0408.pdf

Attached Files



#664 Davin

Davin

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 847 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Russian tanks.

Posted 24 April 2014 - 0023 AM

[quote name="Jim Warford" post="1080985" timestamp="1398227111"][quote name="Wiedzmin" post="1079326" timestamp="1397578344"]
T-72A and T-80B have same 530mm turret front with "sand"
 
[/quote]
Hello Jim,do you think that the sand bars will looks like this drawing:

Attached Files


Edited by Davin, 24 April 2014 - 0024 AM.


#665 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 April 2014 - 0825 AM

[quote name="Wiedzmin" post="1079326" timestamp="1397578344"]
T-72A and T-80B have same 530mm turret front with "sand"
 

Hello Jim,do you think that the sand bars will looks like this drawing:

 

Davin; I think that's a possibility...



#666 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 969 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1035 AM

 

So, the question now is this, would the Soviets have forward deployed tanks protected with sand-filled composite armor against front-line NATO forces?                     

 

E1tZ5.jpg

that's how it looks 

 

in soviet tanks were T-64 with aluminum filler(600-650mm thick), T-64A with HHS inserts(410mm thick), T-64A and T-64B with corundum balls(430-450mm thick), all of these variants have problems(aluminum buckle from cavity when round hit turret, and 650mm thick prevented driver to leave the tank, corundum balls may be unevenly arranged in the casting, HHS variant don't know why but did not go to series ), and there was simple T-72 and T-80 with monolite steel cast turret, and T-72A/T-80B with "simple sand" filler.

Hello Jim,do you think that the sand bars will looks like this drawing:

i made this model just using the drawing turret T-80B, that i posted earlier :)


Edited by Wiedzmin, 24 April 2014 - 1042 AM.


#667 demosthenes

demosthenes

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 610 posts

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1210 PM

Can't someone just X-ray one of the T-72M1s we have in the states?



#668 Companion

Companion

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 78 posts

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1330 PM

@Wiedzmin

 

Do you happen to know what changes were made to T-64B and T-80B armor composition during 1980s? both hull and turret.

 

Especially, Baryatinskiy mentions "standardized turret" for both T-64B and T-80B in 80s. Were they standardized with either corundum or sandbar turret or something newly designed? Maybe something similar to T-72B?


Edited by Companion, 24 April 2014 - 1330 PM.


#669 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 969 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1342 PM

@Wiedzmin

 

Do you happen to know what changes were made to T-64B and T-80B armor composition during 1980s? both hull and turret.

 

filler of turret don't change, T-64A and T-64B corundum balls, T-72A and T-80B "sand bars", T-72B "reflective sheets", T-80U/UD "cellular filler"

 

do not read Baryatinskiy, it's old theme about "T-80B standartized turret with T-64B", but it's BS, yes T-80B have same fighting compartment( autoloder, fcs etc), but it has similar to T-72A front armor of turret and hull(from the use of high hardness steel hull front not 60-105-50, but 60-105-45), T-80BV have absolutely new hull front similar to T-80U.

 

3zfw.jpg


Edited by Wiedzmin, 24 April 2014 - 1346 PM.


#670 Sovngard

Sovngard

    Honorary staff member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 660 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brussels city-state, Belgium
  • Interests:various

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1541 PM

I have a couple of questions, tovarich. ;)


- So, the T-64B uses the same armor package as the 7 years older T-64A ? 
 
- Combination K is another term for the Sandbar or Kvartz composite armor ?
 
- Syrian T-72M1 have the same turret armor package ?
 
- What about the turret armor for the first T-72 model ? The T-72 Ural (Object 172M) and its export variant ; the T-72M.



#671 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,481 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1544 PM

...

- What about the turret armor for the first T-72 model ? The T-72 Ural (Object 172M) and its export variant ; the T-72M.

Steel only, 380-410mm thick on average.



#672 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 969 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 24 April 2014 - 1601 PM

I have a couple of questions, tovarich. ;)

- So, the T-64B uses the same armor package as the 7 years older T-64A ? 
 
- Combination K is another term for the Sandbar or Kvartz composite armor ?
 
- Syrian T-72M1 have the same turret armor package ?
 
- What about the turret armor for the first T-72 model ? The T-72 Ural (Object 172M) and its export variant ; the T-72M.

-yes T-64B same turret armor

- is another term of corundum balls(корундовые шары) IIRC

- i think yes, no difference in armor between 72M1 and 72A(maybe different marks/brand of steel)

 

it's strange, americans have all soviet tanks from T-34 to T-80UD, but no unclassified reports about armor of these tanks.

 

69b6ef6a9d72.jpg

T-64 with HHS inserts

image011.jpg

and corund 



#673 Davin

Davin

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 847 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Russian tanks.

Posted 25 April 2014 - 0259 AM

 

@Wiedzmin

 

Do you happen to know what changes were made to T-64B and T-80B armor composition during 1980s? both hull and turret.

 

filler of turret don't change, T-64A and T-64B corundum balls, T-72A and T-80B "sand bars", T-72B "reflective sheets", T-80U/UD "cellular filler"

 

do not read Baryatinskiy, it's old theme about "T-80B standartized turret with T-64B", but it's BS, yes T-80B have same fighting compartment( autoloder, fcs etc), but it has similar to T-72A front armor of turret and hull(from the use of high hardness steel hull front not 60-105-50, but 60-105-45), T-80BV have absolutely new hull front similar to T-80U.

 

Very interesting info,thx!

Does T-80BV glacis armor made of 50mmRHA+35mmGRP+50mmRHA+35mmGRP+50mmRHA?And T-80U same with T-80BV?

Are there any T-80U or T-80UD used metallic-ceramic array to replace the cellular filler?

Thanks you!



#674 Damian

Damian

    Crew

  • Validating
  • PipPip
  • 3,077 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:MBT's, rock music, electric Bass Guitar's :-)

Posted 25 April 2014 - 0307 AM

 

it's strange, americans have all soviet tanks from T-34 to T-80UD, but no unclassified reports about armor of these tanks.

 

You don't share such data, because it means you know how to efficently defeat protection of potential enemy vehicles, and you loose some advantages.



#675 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,481 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 25 April 2014 - 0621 AM

 

You don't share such data, because it means you know how to efficently defeat protection of potential enemy vehicles, and you loose some advantages.

 

And Russians are so dumb so they assume that US did not inspect armor array? :blink:



#676 Sovngard

Sovngard

    Honorary staff member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 660 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brussels city-state, Belgium
  • Interests:various

Posted 25 April 2014 - 0819 AM

Does the T-72B obr.1989g still uses the reflective sheets armor package ? :blink:



#677 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 April 2014 - 0821 AM

 

I have a couple of questions, tovarich. ;)

- So, the T-64B uses the same armor package as the 7 years older T-64A ? 
 
- Combination K is another term for the Sandbar or Kvartz composite armor ?
 
- Syrian T-72M1 have the same turret armor package ?
 
- What about the turret armor for the first T-72 model ? The T-72 Ural (Object 172M) and its export variant ; the T-72M.

-yes T-64B same turret armor

- is another term of corundum balls(корундовые шары) IIRC

- i think yes, no difference in armor between 72M1 and 72A(maybe different marks/brand of steel)

 

it's strange, americans have all soviet tanks from T-34 to T-80UD, but no unclassified reports about armor of these tanks.

 

 

T-64 with HHS inserts

 

and corund 

 

 

Well, almost...I was the first to include the unclassified report on the exploitation of the T-72B turret frontal armor in my article in the Journal of Military Ordnance several years ago. Beyond that, not much has been released...     



#678 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 April 2014 - 1613 PM

 

 

So, the question now is this, would the Soviets have forward deployed tanks protected with sand-filled composite armor against front-line NATO forces?                     

 

E1tZ5.jpg

that's how it looks 

 

in soviet tanks were T-64 with aluminum filler(600-650mm thick), T-64A with HHS inserts(410mm thick), T-64A and T-64B with corundum balls(430-450mm thick), all of these variants have problems(aluminum buckle from cavity when round hit turret, and 650mm thick prevented driver to leave the tank, corundum balls may be unevenly arranged in the casting, HHS variant don't know why but did not go to series ), and there was simple T-72 and T-80 with monolite steel cast turret, and T-72A/T-80B with "simple sand" filler.

Hello Jim,do you think that the sand bars will looks like this drawing:

i made this model just using the drawing turret T-80B, that i posted earlier :)

 

 

Wiedzmin; you're off the mark a bit on this...

 

Let's move on to the ceramic filler...

 

Answering my own question from above; no, the Soviets wouldn't have forward deployed tanks protected with sand-filled composite armor against front-line NATO forces. Instead, they would have forward deployed those tanks protected by ceramic and metal composite armor - known as "CERMET" in the US Army and NATO. The T-72A (known as the M1981/3 in NATO due to its appearance in the Moscow parade in 1981), was forward deployed in the CGF. In this case, the information from Nii Stali regarding the T-72A is misleading and most likely disinformation. The much more likely scenario is that the T-72A, the only forward deployed T-72 variant, was protected by CERMET. The T-64A (first deployed in the GSFG in 1976), was also certainly protected by CERMET; according to reliable sources, the ceramic used was Corundum or "Korrund" also known in the West as "Combination-K." The use of the "highly rigid steel inserts," which may have been limited to testing only (and which followed the initial use of the aluminum alloy filler on the T-64 Object 432), was halted according to Russian sources in 1975.

 

The T-64B (known as the M1981/1 in NATO), was also protected by ceramic composite armor, but of a different design. In this case (not so with the T-64A), the Corundum used was formed into spheres or balls. The use of Soviet composite armor using ball filler on the T-64B was reported early on by reliable sources including unclassified materials published by the Office of the Deputy Chief of Intelligence (ODCINT) in US Army Europe, where it was called "Pachinko Ball" armor. While an interesting name, it's not exactly right since the balls used in the Pachinko pin-ball game are only 11mm in diameter and are loose/free-falling. Much more recent information has confirmed that these balls on the T-64B and T-80B are held tightly in-place and are much larger than 11mm. According to information posted on Tank Net in 2005, the actual ball diameter is approximately twice the diameter of the sabot penetrators expected to be fired its way; M735 = 35mm, M111/DM23 = 32mm, etc.

 

Now to the T-80B...just like it does with the T-72A, Nii Stali reports some misleading information regarding the T-80B. As I posted earlier, it's likely that initially, T-80s used a "sand-core" armor. It is unlikely, however, that sand was used as the filler material for very long...certainly not long enough to be used on those tanks going to the GSFG in 1983. The T-80B (originally known as the M1983/1 in NATO), like the other forward-deployed Soviet tanks, was protected by ceramic-composite armor. Reporting from reliable sources over the years, clearly ties both the T-64B and the T-80B together with Corundum ball-filled composite armor.

 

Finally, a certain number of T-72 "Ural-1" (Object 172M1) had turrets that were produced protected by "ceramic ball inserts" from 1976-1977. In 1977, these turrets were changed "for the ones with sand core armor." It isn't exactly clear why the filler was switched back to sand...sand is less complicated and less expensive...and there was a reliable report posted on Tank Net back in 2005 that said there was a traditional rule or belief at Uralvagonzavod back in the day that said, "we are so great, so we can't accept foreign designs and not to apply changes to them."                                                    



#679 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 969 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 25 April 2014 - 1738 PM

Does the T-72B obr.1989g still uses the reflective sheets armor package ? :blink:

would not be surprised if T-90 still use it, but with different materials, thickness etc.

 

 

                                     

 

not T-72(monolite)/T-72A(sand) not T-80(monolite)/80B(sand,and this is 100 percent, i posted drawing of T-80B turret, no balls, just sand like in T-72A )  never had ceramic(only first experemental tanks that uses T-64 turret, thats all), it's not question about "soviets deployed tanks with best armor", soviets just deployed tanks with sufficient armor.

 

as far as i know T-64B have same turret as T-64A, just modifed to instal Kobra ATGM, and same hull armor, but there was T-64BV which have(and it was shown on the tank cutaway on tank repair factory) new hull front structure.

ZyLqk.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Well, almost...I was the first to include the unclassified report on the exploitation of the T-72B turret frontal armor in my article in the Journal of Military Ordnance several years ago. Beyond that, not much has been released...     

 

I'm talking about information like "we fired M829 on T-72B from 1km distance, with striking velocity... and penetrated with after armor effect, it shown on witness plate.. photo N1" detailed info :) 

something like reports about M48 vs small arms fire or A-10 vs T-62.


Edited by Wiedzmin, 25 April 2014 - 1801 PM.


#680 BLAH

BLAH

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,414 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:AFVs

Posted 25 April 2014 - 2311 PM

Any specific reason why they never put the sand filler in the T-72M1?  It had a composite glacis after all, and adding sand in whatever form it's taken (is it like compressed sand in cavities in the armor?) shouldn't really be a super secret.  Compressed sand is well known for its properties at stopping really fast things.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users