Jump to content


Photo

Armor of Ukraine


  • Please log in to reply
1865 replies to this topic

#681 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,874 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 April 2014 - 0008 AM

 

Does the T-72B obr.1989g still uses the reflective sheets armor package ? :blink:

would not be surprised if T-90 still use it, but with different materials, thickness etc.

 

 

                                     

 

not T-72(monolite)/T-72A(sand) not T-80(monolite)/80B(sand,and this is 100 percent, i posted drawing of T-80B turret, no balls, just sand like in T-72A )  never had ceramic(only first experemental tanks that uses T-64 turret, thats all), it's not question about "soviets deployed tanks with best armor", soviets just deployed tanks with sufficient armor.

 

as far as i know T-64B have same turret as T-64A, just modifed to instal Kobra ATGM, and same hull armor, but there was T-64BV which have(and it was shown on the tank cutaway on tank repair factory) new hull front structure.

ZyLqk.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Well, almost...I was the first to include the unclassified report on the exploitation of the T-72B turret frontal armor in my article in the Journal of Military Ordnance several years ago. Beyond that, not much has been released...     

 

I'm talking about information like "we fired M829 on T-72B from 1km distance, with striking velocity... and penetrated with after armor effect, it shown on witness plate.. photo N1" detailed info :)

something like reports about M48 vs small arms fire or A-10 vs T-62.

 

 

Wiedzmin; unfortunately, your information on the turret composite designs/materials doesn't make sense...at least not for production/deployed tanks. As I mentioned above, different configurations and composite materials were tried and tested in the early days (even years) of these MBTs, but it's a different story by the time they were put in harm's way. It also really doesn't make sense that the T-64B would be deployed to the GSFG protected by the same turret frontal armor that was carried by the T-64A that had already been in East Germany since 1976. Also, sending the T-80B to the GSFG with less capable sand-filled frontal armor would have been a bad move...the drawing you posted simply isn't acurate.            



#682 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,874 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 April 2014 - 0013 AM

Any specific reason why they never put the sand filler in the T-72M1?  It had a composite glacis after all, and adding sand in whatever form it's taken (is it like compressed sand in cavities in the armor?) shouldn't really be a super secret.  Compressed sand is well known for its properties at stopping really fast things.

 

BLAH; sand filler was used on the T-72M1...look at my previous posting about sand...



#683 BLAH

BLAH

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,414 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:AFVs

Posted 26 April 2014 - 0047 AM

Ok, cool.  I missed that one.  Excellent read.

 

So it was just the T-72M that had the all steel turret?



#684 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,767 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 26 April 2014 - 0532 AM

T-72M and early production original T-72.


#685 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1034 AM

 


the drawing you posted simply isn't acurate.            

 

drawing i posted based on factory drawing of object 219R, of course you can argue with factory, but i think it would not make sense :)

 

I do not take the data out of my head,  just in case you think I'm just invent this up, also you can just find all of these on otvaga(not all of course but more of these info).

 

you just realize, making tens of thousands of tanks need to do them cheaply and quickly, rather than chase the strange benefit in the form of "ceramic balls."



#686 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,874 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1150 AM

 

 


the drawing you posted simply isn't acurate.            

 

drawing i posted based on factory drawing of object 219R, of course you can argue with factory, but i think it would not make sense :)

 

I do not take the data out of my head,  just in case you think I'm just invent this up, also you can just find all of these on otvaga(not all of course but more of these info).

 

you just realize, making tens of thousands of tanks need to do them cheaply and quickly, rather than chase the strange benefit in the form of "ceramic balls."

 

 

Well, first of all...I don't mind arguing with a factory-released drawing intended for the pubic (and other interested viewers of course)...it's not likely that drawings like this show the real deal in every case. The drawing shows what they want it to show...

 

I'm also not suggesting that you're inventing the information you post here (I think the tank sight images you've posted are very interesting), only that the sources you're using aren't on target.



#687 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,874 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1153 AM

 

 

So, the question now is this, would the Soviets have forward deployed tanks protected with sand-filled composite armor against front-line NATO forces?                     

 

E1tZ5.jpg

that's how it looks 

 

 

i made this model just using the drawing turret T-80B, that i posted earlier :)

 

 

Weidzmin; can you provide some additional details on this pic? What exactly is this? Which tank (or tanks) reportedly used this material?  

 

Thanks...



#688 Sovngard

Sovngard

    Honorary staff member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 661 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brussels city-state, Belgium
  • Interests:various

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1205 PM

Looks like cement mortar.



#689 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1428 PM

 

 

 

Weidzmin; can you provide some additional details on this pic? What exactly is this? Which tank (or tanks) reportedly used this material?  

 

Thanks...

 

 

man who posted this on otvaga worked on BTRZ(tank repair factory) said this is material of "sand bars".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, first of all...I don't mind arguing with a factory-released drawing intended for the pubic (and other interested viewers of course)...it's not likely that drawings like this show the real deal in every case. The drawing shows what they want it to show...

 

I'm also not suggesting that you're inventing the information you post here (I think the tank sight images you've posted are very interesting), only that the sources you're using aren't on target.

 

 

he was not supposed to become a "public domain", but since USSR collapse we have seen many leaks of our secrets, that all.

 

about sand in T-80B you can also read BTVT 

 

http://btvt.narod.ru/4/armor.htm

При разработке танка были попытки создать литую башню из стали повышенной твердости, которые не увенчались успехом. В результате была выбрана конструкция башни из литой брони средней твердости с заливаемым стержнем по типу башни танка Т-72А причем толщины брони башни Т-80Б были увеличены, такие башни были приняты для серийного производства с 1977-го года.

 

 

In developing tanks were attempts to create cast turret of steel of high hardness, which proved unsuccessful. The result was chosen turret design of cast armor of medium hardness with sand bars type turret T-72A and the thickness of the turret T-80B were increased, such turrets were taken for serial production of 1977.


Edited by Wiedzmin, 26 April 2014 - 1436 PM.


#690 Sovngard

Sovngard

    Honorary staff member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 661 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brussels city-state, Belgium
  • Interests:various

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1556 PM

Old topic about the sandbar composite armor : http://www.tank-net....?showtopic=2400



#691 Davin

Davin

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 849 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Russian tanks.

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1846 PM

 
In developing tanks were attempts to create cast turret of steel of high hardness, which proved unsuccessful. The result was chosen turret design of cast armor of medium hardness with sand bars type turret T-72A and the thickness of the turret T-80B were increased, such turrets were taken for serial production of 1977.

Is the sand common nature sand or some kinds of factory made silicate?
Some follow-on questions:
Does T-80BV glacis armor made of 50mmRHA+35mmGRP+50mmRHA+35mmGRP+50mmRHA?And T-80U same with T-80BV?
Are there any T-80U or T-80UD used metallic-ceramic array to replace the cellular filler?
Sorry so many questions,thanks in advance!

#692 BLAH

BLAH

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,414 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:AFVs

Posted 26 April 2014 - 1923 PM

Seems like regular sand going by the comments on T-72 turrets leaking "sand" when penetrated.

 

There's probably not much difference in anti-ballistic properties of highly compressed sand and crushed up quartz.



#693 BLAH

BLAH

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,414 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:AFVs

Posted 27 April 2014 - 0042 AM

From those popular tests; does this look like thin areas of cavities getting popped up from the impacts?  You can't make them out on the fresh turret on the right.  Looks interesting anyway.

 

T-72M1.jpg



#694 Wiedzmin

Wiedzmin

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia, Leningrad

Posted 27 April 2014 - 0631 AM


Is the sand common nature sand or some kinds of factory made silicate?
Some follow-on questions:
Does T-80BV glacis armor made of 50mmRHA+35mmGRP+50mmRHA+35mmGRP+50mmRHA?And T-80U same with T-80BV?
Are there any T-80U or T-80UD used metallic-ceramic array to replace the cellular filler?
Sorry so many questions,thanks in advance!

 

about sand i don't know.

 

BV yes same as U as far as i can judge from the sources available to me

T-80U/UD turret were experemental with ceramic array, but as far as i know he was not a serial.

image013.jpg

T-72B, T-80U/UD with cellular, T-80U/UD ceramics.

 

From those popular tests; does this look like thin areas of cavities getting popped up from the impacts?  You can't make them out on the fresh turret on the right.  Looks interesting anyway.

 

 

yes interesting, but seeing this "circles" only on two turrets, don't know what is it.



#695 Przezdzieblo

Przezdzieblo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,878 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Warsaw

Posted 27 April 2014 - 1534 PM

I guess those might be steel rods, attached to sand cores, that could be used during casting process. Some attaching points are needed to put inserts in the right place when pouring melted steel into the form. Later those rods are cut and polished. Those popped up because of impact.


Edited by Przezdzieblo, 27 April 2014 - 1534 PM.


#696 Ben Dejo

Ben Dejo

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 176 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 April 2014 - 1754 PM

From those popular tests; does this look like thin areas of cavities getting popped up from the impacts?  You can't make them out on the fresh turret on the right.  Looks interesting anyway.

 

T-72M1.jpg

My thought goes back to the composite armour test done for M-60; is the sand acting like an incompressible fluid and causing this area to plug fail?



#697 BLAH

BLAH

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,414 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:AFVs

Posted 27 April 2014 - 1834 PM

Very possible.  The defeat mechanism of "sand" on HEAT would be due to its bulging nature when hit (it keeps on attacking the side of the penetrator), plus the usual erosion of whatever hits it.

 

So, as you said, the thinnish plug over the top of the cavity could very well burst from the pressure.

 

Cavities that can be filled from the top of the turret would probably be the easiest way of doing it.



#698 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,874 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 April 2014 - 2309 PM

...but there was T-64BV which have(and it was shown on the tank cutaway on tank repair factory) new hull front structure.

 

 

                                     

 

ZyLqk.jpg

 

 

 

Wiedzmin; do you have a pic of the T-64BV cut-away you mentioned above?

  

 



#699 Jim Warford

Jim Warford

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,874 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 April 2014 - 2345 PM

Wiedzmin; you're also off the mark with your point, "it's not question about "soviets deployed tanks with best armor", soviets just deployed tanks with sufficient armor." Clearly, the Soviets did forward deploy their best available/production tanks that were protected by the best armor they had at the time. That armor was both CERMET (Corundum) and ceramic ball armor (also Corundum). It's likely that one of the reasons (maybe the only reason), that the T-72A wasn't available for export for some time and then only went to select countries, was because it was protected by CERMET composite armor. 



#700 Nikolas93TS

Nikolas93TS

    Thread necromancer and obscure questions

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 817 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Trieste

Posted 06 May 2014 - 1319 PM

 

Lots of Ukrainian armor moving. Very interesting. 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users