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New Magach?


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#41 shep854

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 0725 AM

Still, it's gratifying to see M60s still soldiering on--even though they're kinda hard to recognize.


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#42 DKTanker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 0842 AM

Still, it's gratifying to see M60s still soldiering on--even though they're kinda hard to recognize.

Are we so sure those are M60 hulls?  Those sure do look like M48 fenders front and rear, and while they could have used the more robust steel fenders of the M48 on the M60, the best way to quickly differentiate iis to look at the front hull.


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#43 Andrew Jaremkow

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 1818 PM

I wonder what that curved bit sticking up is on the rear right of the turret?

 

The curved bit seems to be an antenna of some sort that is related to the Spike NLOS missile system.

 

MAGACH-SPIKENLOS-curvedantenna_zps6071c4

 

 

You can see it in other photos of the Spike NLOS system on different chassis.

 

63533253_zps374b70ce.jpg

tamuz1_zpse7031282.jpg

 

 

It looks like the antenna can be folded down on some systems, or completely removed if necessary to keep it safe from harm.

 

SPIKENLOS-ANTENNAFOLDING_zpsb4da8b21.jpg

SPIKENLOS-ANTENNAREMOVAL_zpsfa478f5c.jpg

 

 

I wonder how the missiles actually fire from the turret? I doubt they're fired straight out the large back hatch, since that would give them almost no elevation, and make it awkward to vent the rocket exhaust. More importantly, the antenna is pointing the wrong way! This implies the missiles are fired forward, which in turn suggests there is some sort of elevation mechanism for the missile rack. Perhaps something like the sketch below? Of course you'd also want to open the back hatch to let the rocket exhaust out.

 

MAGACH-SPIKENLOS-boxlauncherconcept_zps7


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#44 shep854

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 2053 PM

Still, it's gratifying to see M60s still soldiering on--even though they're kinda hard to recognize.

Are we so sure those are M60 hulls?  Those sure do look like M48 fenders front and rear, and while they could have used the more robust steel fenders of the M48 on the M60, the best way to quickly differentiate iis to look at the front hull.

As you're the one with extensive personal experience with them, I willingly defer. :)


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#45 Guest_Jason L_*

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 2111 PM

The shadows and the different aerial sets still have me profoundly confused. It still looks to me like the bustle/missile launcher thingy is a totally empty space.


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#46 Andrew Jaremkow

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 2158 PM

It still looks to me like the bustle/missile launcher thingy is a totally empty space.

I agree. I think the tank with its rear hatch folded down is showing a completely empty magazine. You can see the mounting rails for four sets of three missiles, but there are currently no missiles in it, so it's mostly just a large cavity.

 

The other tank (the one I made the sketch on) has its rear hatch shut, so you just see the blank flat plate at the back of the bustle.


Edited by Andrew Jaremkow, 07 May 2013 - 2159 PM.

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#47 DKTanker

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 0604 AM

As you're the one with extensive personal experience with them, I willingly defer. :)

I really can't tell, nobody could from the angle of the pictures.  Somebody said Magach 6 (M48), then somebody else corrected them and said Magach 7 (M60), I just used your post as an opportunity to pose the question. 


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#48 DKTanker

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 0617 AM

It still looks to me like the bustle/missile launcher thingy is a totally empty space.

I agree. I think the tank with its rear hatch folded down is showing a completely empty magazine. You can see the mounting rails for four sets of three missiles, but there are currently no missiles in it, so it's mostly just a large cavity.

 

The other tank (the one I made the sketch on) has its rear hatch shut, so you just see the blank flat plate at the back of the bustle.

My guess is that the fold down plate is a deflector shield for 360 degree capability.   The side sponsons do present their own enigma.  They represent a rather large space...all electronics for missile guidance?  Or perhaps some extra missile stowage? 


Edited by DKTanker, 08 May 2013 - 0643 AM.

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#49 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 0947 AM

The extra aerials are for a BMS that is used to dial up Spike-on-Demand. They're on the Tamuz, which was probably an interim measure since the IDF just hates putting perfectly good weapons on a shoebox.

The sponsons hold all the electronics and an APU to drive them to keep the clutter out of the turret proper, which is probably looks like Ruben's Electrionic Bazaar the number of screens they are running. The stuff in the bed of the Humvee or inside the Tamuz goes in the sponsons, which is not stowage since they have jerrycans exposed on the outside.


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#50 Guest_Jason L_*

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 1241 PM

Spike is evidently infinitely more capable, but I find the Krizantema vehicle a lot more sexy minus the paper armour.


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#51 Colin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 1542 PM

hey maybe we can do the same mod to our Leopard C2's


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#52 JW Collins

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 0519 AM

So this Spike NLOS is most of what the now cancelled XM501 NLOS-LS was supposed to be, albeit with a shorter range and no SALH capability?


Edited by JW Collins, 11 May 2013 - 0523 AM.

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#53 Guest_Jason L_*

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 1140 AM

I thought NLOS-LS was meant to be one of those modular "pack weapons" that you load as a single container/canister on whatever platform (dumb or not) you choose?


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#54 Kenneth P. Katz

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 2217 PM

Magach 3 = M48A1, M48A2C, M48A3, including upgrades with 105mm gun

Magach 5 = M48A5 (supplied by US, not an Israeli upgrade)

Magach 6 = M60, M60A1, M60A3 plus numerous Israeli upgrades

Magach 7 = Magach 6 with new turret armor

 

There is no Magach 1, 2 or 4.

I really can't tell, nobody could from the angle of the pictures.  Somebody said Magach 6 (M48), then somebody else corrected them and said Magach 7 (M60), I just used your post as an opportunity to pose the question. 


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#55 DKTanker

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 2250 PM

Magach 3 = M48A1, M48A2C, M48A3, including upgrades with 105mm gun

Magach 5 = M48A5 (supplied by US, not an Israeli upgrade)

Magach 6 = M60, M60A1, M60A3 plus numerous Israeli upgrades

Magach 7 = Magach 6 with new turret armor

 

There is no Magach 1, 2 or 4.

Fine, still doesn't answer the question as to what is the base vehicle.  Not that it really matters.


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#56 zakk

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 0944 AM

 

It still looks to me like the bustle/missile launcher thingy is a totally empty space.

I agree. I think the tank with its rear hatch folded down is showing a completely empty magazine. You can see the mounting rails for four sets of three missiles, but there are currently no missiles in it, so it's mostly just a large cavity.

 

The other tank (the one I made the sketch on) has its rear hatch shut, so you just see the blank flat plate at the back of the bustle.

My guess is that the fold down plate is a deflector shield for 360 degree capability.   The side sponsons do present their own enigma.  They represent a rather large space...all electronics for missile guidance?  Or perhaps some extra missile stowage? 

The right and left side sponsons (actually both integrated parts of the turret) are totally different, the left being much more square. Also note the rear end of each sponsons. The left sponson clearly has a side opening rear hatch. So what we have here is an elevating twin launcher (one missile on top of another) inside the left side sponson, a middle storage space for spare missiles (two racks, one on top of the other), and right sponson housing the elevating missile guidance antennae, EO gear, and electronics. What appears to be the right side sponson is just externally boxes, mounted on the right sponson/turret side, for carrying stuff.  


Edited by zakk, 12 May 2013 - 0947 AM.

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#57 Andrew Jaremkow

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 1053 AM

The right and left side sponsons (actually both integrated parts of the turret) are totally different, the left being much more square. Also note the rear end of each sponsons. The left sponson clearly has a side opening rear hatch. So what we have here is an elevating twin launcher (one missile on top of another) inside the left side sponson, a middle storage space for spare missiles (two racks, one on top of the other), and right sponson housing the elevating missile guidance antennae, EO gear, and electronics. What appears to be the right side sponson is just externally boxes, mounted on the right sponson/turret side, for carrying stuff.  

 

So something like this instead?

 

MAGACH-SPIKENLOS-boxlauncherconcept2_zps

 

That would probably be mechanically simpler (smaller lighter elevating structure) than a central launcher, although it would be more vulnerable to damage, being on the outside. The main thing would be that they now only have two shots before they have to get out and wrestle a fairly hefty set of missiles out of the central storage space, and over and into the box launcher. (Unless they've somehow built a lateral autoloader into the system, which seems like a lot of complication and expense.) Having all twelve missiles ready for immediate use would be a lot more operationally responsive.

 

Edit:  Alternatively, if the left sponson is tall enough, and there is nothing in front of it to get in the way, you could have a set of fixed missile rails already at the proper elevation inside the sponson, eliminating the need for elevating mechanisms. It doesn't look like there's enough room for that though.


Edited by Andrew Jaremkow, 12 May 2013 - 1111 AM.

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#58 Max H

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 1145 AM

Or perhaps an elevating launcher pops out of the left sponson, like the 9M123 launching vehicle. If the rear rack wasn't an autoloader it would be a really awkward setup, I'm sure a manually loaded launcher could be in a much better position - I'm convinced it's autoloaded


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#59 zakk

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 1149 AM

Edit:  Alternatively, if the left sponson is tall enough, and there is nothing in front of it to get in the way, you could have a set of fixed missile rails already at the proper elevation inside the sponson, eliminating the need for elevating mechanisms. It doesn't look like there's enough room for that though.

 

The sponson is an integral part of the turret, and thus fixed and armoured. No movement there. The twin launcher is inside, on an elevating mechanism. You have the rear hatch opening for missile exhaust, and top hatch opening for the firing unit to be elevated enough for firing.


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#60 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 0650 AM

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