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Leopard 2 Ammo Storage Question.


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#1 Tyvar

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 1511 PM

On another forum I'm having a discussion with someone who is claiming that the later versions of the Leo 2 include armored doors and blowout panels for the hull ammo storage compartment. Does anybody know anything about any Leo versions with said changes? as far as I know up to the 2A6 there were no such protections on the Leo IIs ammo storage.
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#2 rmgill

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 1632 PM

Looks like....

leopard2wieakoncpecja.png


Also looks like there is ammo under the front armor in the hull.

leopard2a5108pt.jpg


One of the experts will be along with more data I'm sure but that's what I yielded with 2 minutes of searching on the intartubes. 


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#3 Max H

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 1658 PM

Also looks like there is ammo under the front armor in the hull.

 

That's what Tyvar's talking about. I've never heard of such a modification


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#4 Damian

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 1708 PM

On another forum I'm having a discussion with someone who is claiming that the later versions of the Leo 2 include armored doors and blowout panels for the hull ammo storage compartment. Does anybody know anything about any Leo versions with said changes? as far as I know up to the 2A6 there were no such protections on the Leo IIs ammo storage.

 

As far as I know, there are no bulkhead or blast doors there.

 

It is possible to design there such ammo storage, but it would be difficult and would require a lot of redesigning of such ammo magazine.

 

So no, only 15 rounds in turret bustle can be considered as safe ammunition storage, in case of hull, if ammunition will be ignited, it is complete vehicle loss and crew is most likely dead.


Edited by Damian, 08 July 2013 - 1709 PM.

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#5 Panzermann

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 1849 PM

There are torsion bars running running under the hull ammunition storage as can be seen in the pictures posted by rmgill. It will be hard to put blast panels there. The ammo is meekly protected by steel pipes in that the individual cartridges are being put. But that's it and I cannot imagine where to put blast doors as neither downwards nor upwards can work. The turret front is blocking pretty much the whole top face with the wedge shaped armour modules and the area is imho too small to install a useful blast door there anyway.


edit: I have never heard of protected bunker with blast panels for the hull before. Though I ain't omniscient.

Edited by Panzermann, 08 July 2013 - 1914 PM.

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#6 DKTanker

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 1952 PM

There are torsion bars running running under the hull ammunition storage as can be seen in the pictures posted by rmgill. It will be hard to put blast panels there. The ammo is meekly protected by steel pipes in that the individual cartridges are being put. But that's it and I cannot imagine where to put blast doors as neither downwards nor upwards can work. The turret front is blocking pretty much the whole top face with the wedge shaped armour modules and the area is imho too small to install a useful blast door there anyway.


edit: I have never heard of protected bunker with blast panels for the hull before. Though I ain't omniscient.

The M1 and M1A1 both have blow out panels, top and bottom, for their hull ammunition magazine.
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#7 rmgill

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 2128 PM

leopard2A6ammo.jpg


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#8 Damian

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 0407 AM

As I said it would be possible to place there isolated ammunition compartment in form of a rotating drum, a blast proof bulkhead with small ammunition port covered with small blast door, and as DKTanker said, placing there blow off panels in belly is very possible.


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#9 Panzermann

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 1014 AM

edit: I have never heard of protected bunker with blast panels for the hull before. Though I ain't omniscient.

The M1 and M1A1 both have blow out panels, top and bottom, for their hull ammunition magazine.
Sorry I should have been more specific. Yes the M1 Abrams has blast panels in the hull, but I was writing about the Leopard 2. And for it I never heard of a plan to add such and the Leo 2 has 27 cartridges in the hull in one place plus MG ammunition above these, whereas the Abrams has like only half a dozen or so (the exact number eludes me right now) stored around the hull, so much less explosive force must be channeled in case of an unlucky ignition of the cartridges.
And I suspect small openings between torsion bars is not enough to channel the pressure outside.


I guess the storage layout was taken directly from the Leopard 1 that has the same arrangement in the hull front and together with the hull-down in defile doctrine intended for the Leopards I think the engineers did not bother to change anything. Although they could have at least used wet stowage to reduce the risks, but that would have reduced the number of rounds stored. At least heavy skirts were put on the front to protect the ammunition.


What is the SOP of canadian and danish Leopard 2 in Afghanistan? Do they leave the hull bunker empty because of mines and IED?

Edited by Panzermann, 10 July 2013 - 1102 AM.

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#10 Damian

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 1524 PM

 

whereas the Abrams has like only half a dozen or so (the exact number eludes me right now) stored around the hull, so much less explosive force must be channeled in case of an unlucky ignition of the cartridges.

 

M1 and M1IP had 8 105mm rounds in izolated hull ammunition magazine, M1A1 and M1A2 have 6 120mm rounds in this magazine.


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#11 Panzermann

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 1948 PM

Fascinating that I was not totally off on the number of rounds. :)
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#12 rmgill

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 2234 PM

Color me confused but does not that stowage bin on the left hull wall block access to inserting rounds in the extreme left of the forward magazine?


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#13 pikachu

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 2251 PM

Color me confused but does not that stowage bin on the left hull wall block access to inserting rounds in the extreme left of the forward magazine?

 

Those are bins for MG ammo, IIRC. They can be completely removed from the wall to access the leftmost rounds in the magazine.


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#14 Rickard N

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 0328 AM

I was going to say that the leftmost bins collapse but when I look at the photo I realize that I was thniking of the bottom ones...

 

/R


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#15 pikachu

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 0410 AM

I was going to say that the leftmost bins collapse but when I look at the photo I realize that I was thniking of the bottom ones...

 

/R

 

Those photos are of the latest variants with the collapsible bins locked in collapsed mode. only 22 rounds can be stored, 5 less than in the original Leo2 series. 


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#16 sunday

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 0509 AM

leopard2A6ammo.jpg

 

Bit OT, but related: Are those torsion bars "naked", or are they inside a shroud?


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#17 DKTanker

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 0553 AM

 

 

Bit OT, but related: Are those torsion bars "naked", or are they inside a shroud?

 

Very much "naked" except for the cover just behind the driver seat.


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#18 erwinl

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 0638 AM

Couldn't that hydraulic turret pump at the rear be moved to the place in the bow where the reserve rounds are now?

That way there might be room for an additional 15 rounds in the turret, under blow out panels. Maybe even more as it looks, to my unexperienced eye, like that part of the turret is a bit larger than the one already containing rounds.

 

That leaves just 7 rounds to find some place for in a safer place than they are now.

 

Maybe even outside the turret, under some minimal armour, at the back? You won't be able to replenish under fire for sure, but it would be a safe place for extra damage to the tank if they are hit.

 

Where does the Abrams have the main hydraulic pump? Can't be in the turret, as there are all the rounds in the back.


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#19 Marek Tucan

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 0705 AM

 

 

 

Bit OT, but related: Are those torsion bars "naked", or are they inside a shroud?

 

Very much "naked" except for the cover just behind the driver seat.

 

Ah, that then answers our rather prolonged debate. Thanks :)


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#20 Przezdzieblo

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 1050 AM

erwinl,

if you can move hydraulics from turret, you can also change it to electric drives, with no bothering with hydraulic lines. However even in Leos with electric system it still ocupies that place. Maybe turret rebuild was considered too expensive.

 

Abrams got it`s pump in hull. Presurised hydraulic liquid goes through the slip ring to the turret. And not only that, see DKTanker`s post:

 

The hydaulic resevoir is behind the turret in the hull. The main hydraulic pump is on the auxillary gearbox on the engine, the secondary pump is under the turret, and all the hydraulics, electrical, communications, and NBC air, come up from the hull through the slip ring mounted dead center of the turret floor.

 

source


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