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All Things Stealth


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#1581 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 0137 AM

Thats right. Though I guess if you can put the entire aircraft off boresight, its not THAT much of a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

Few more shots here.

 

https://www.thedrive...are-fascinating

 

If I didnt know better, Id say the USAF was quietly lobbying to have their aircraft put out of their misery.

 

aren't those pics of the demo team though?

 

 

It is, but what is it saying that they are putting aircraft like that in front of the public? Its not sending a particularly great signal.

 

 

or it's saying we aren't wasting the limited funding or time to do the up-keep to keep it 'combat' ready.....?

 

or who knows, maybe at of the show season they go in for extensive skin 'repairs'...?

 

Well they built less than 200 airframes. What is the USAF saying that it doesnt need to keep all of the pitifully small number it has combat ready?


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#1582 Josh

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 2051 PM

187 airframes isnt pitifully small compared to any other organization that isnt Chinese. How many typhoons are there? How many MiG-35s?
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#1583 KV7

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 2124 PM

187 airframes isnt pitifully small compared to any other organization that isnt Chinese. How many typhoons are there? How many MiG-35s?

China does not have much that is modern though. The J-11 build was only around 250.


Edited by KV7, 13 August 2019 - 0550 AM.

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#1584 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 0122 AM

187 airframes isnt pitifully small compared to any other organization that isnt Chinese. How many typhoons are there? How many MiG-35s?

 

Yes, but European nations dont have to guard 2 Oceans with them. Add up all the European airforces with them and you are looking at close to 500 airframes.

 

Compared to the amount of terrain the US has to cover, yes, 200 airframes is pretty pitiful.  Add up how many they have up in the Pacific, and compare them to how many can quickly deploy to Europe if they need them. There is an obvious problem.

https://en.wikipedia...tin_F-22_Raptor


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#1585 GARGEAN

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 1003 AM

187 airframes isnt pitifully small compared to any other organization that isnt Chinese. How many typhoons are there? How many MiG-35s?

Why MiG-35 is even in discussion?
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#1586 Daan

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 1214 PM

Is it meaningful to add up all European Typhoons (or other aircraft) as a comparison to USAF F-22s? These European planes are not even placed under a unified command, which the F-22s are. In addition, the F-22s are not exactly the only modern fighter aircraft in the US armed forces. 


Edited by Daan, 12 August 2019 - 1215 PM.

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#1587 Nobu

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 1222 PM

The picture that may be coming into focus is the readiness level not matching the threat level being used to justify the expenditure level.


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#1588 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 0228 AM

Model proported to show what the stealthier production version of of Okhotnik will look like.

https://www.thedrive...bat-air-vehicle


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#1589 Daan

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 1543 PM

Putin trying to sell the Su-57 to Erdogan:

 

ZT6Bn9c.jpg


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#1590 Nobu

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 1547 PM

A penny for Erdogan's thoughts.

 

"I gave up the F35 for this?"


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#1591 KV7

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 2250 PM

A penny for Erdogan's thoughts.

 

"I gave up the F35 for this?"

That seems unlikely. Su-57 at least looks the part, and in Ergodan's circles F-35 carries no huge status bonus.


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#1592 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0137 AM

It might look the part, and with development would be one hell of a fine aircraft. But there are lingering doubts its as stealthy as it wants to be, there seems to be little money to develop the capabilities the F35 has, and it costs an arm and a leg.

 

If he wants something comparable to F35, he should buy Chinese. After all, they based their aircraft on F35.....


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#1593 KV7

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0241 AM

It might look the part, and with development would be one hell of a fine aircraft. But there are lingering doubts its as stealthy as it wants to be, there seems to be little money to develop the capabilities the F35 has, and it costs an arm and a leg.

 

If he wants something comparable to F35, he should buy Chinese. After all, they based their aircraft on F35.....

Isn't it meant to pan out at around 65 % of the F-35 price ?


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#1594 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0515 AM

Probably, but is it 65 percent of the capablity? Probably not. And Russia is going to buy only a fraction of aircraft of the F35's that will soon be arrayed around them.

 

With Indian money and full development, It will be a nice aircraft, even without the full sensor fit the F35 will have. But I have to reflect a single engined aircraft a lot smaller would probably work out a lot better all round. They may be making the same mistake they made with the Mig29, when mig had a perfectly good single engine design they put aside.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 28 August 2019 - 0516 AM.

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#1595 KV7

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0651 AM

I think the twin engines on Mig-29 perhaps made sense as the safety margin allowed the use of 'not exceptionally reliable when thrashed' engines and removed the need for some mix of exotic materials and bleeding edge engines in order to still try and get good performance and safety.

Something with less performance and less cost was also hardly needed either, due to large stockpiles of older aircraft.

But this is not my areas of expertise, so I might be wrong.


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#1596 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0804 AM

The sad thing is, there is a concept model for an aircraft Mig designed that was to be a replacement for a mig 21. It was a single engine design, and whilst I doubt it would have proven as effective as a mig29, it would have been cheaper and easier to maintain.

 

Thats not knocking the Mig29, im a distinct enthusiast, but I think Mig kind of designed themselves into a corner with it a bit.


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#1597 KV7

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0841 AM

The sad thing is, there is a concept model for an aircraft Mig designed that was to be a replacement for a mig 21. It was a single engine design, and whilst I doubt it would have proven as effective as a mig29, it would have been cheaper and easier to maintain.

 

Thats not knocking the Mig29, im a distinct enthusiast, but I think Mig kind of designed themselves into a corner with it a bit.

Though they hardly could have foreseen the end of demand for affordable fighters, both for the USSR itself and its clients, which occurred with the end of the Cold War.

JF-17 is an excellent example of this sort of cheap but still ok fighter aircraft (and Mig consulted on this design, btw) but it has not got very many customers. Here is a nice pic:

Pakistan_Air_Force_JF-17_Thunder_flies_i


Edited by KV7, 28 August 2019 - 0846 AM.

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#1598 Josh

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0848 AM

Isn't it a little early to be hocking Su-57? Presumably Russia would want to buy more first? The MiG-35 on the other hand is a capable aircraft in full production. That buy seems more likely.


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#1599 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0859 AM

 

The sad thing is, there is a concept model for an aircraft Mig designed that was to be a replacement for a mig 21. It was a single engine design, and whilst I doubt it would have proven as effective as a mig29, it would have been cheaper and easier to maintain.

 

Thats not knocking the Mig29, im a distinct enthusiast, but I think Mig kind of designed themselves into a corner with it a bit.

Though they hardly could have foreseen the end of demand for affordable fighters, both for the USSR itself and its clients, which occurred with the end of the Cold War.

JF-17 is an excellent example of this sort of cheap but still ok fighter aircraft (and Mig consulted on this design, btw) but it has not got very many customers. Here is a nice pic:

Pakistan_Air_Force_JF-17_Thunder_flies_i

 

Yes, thats really quite a nice fighter indeed. I think to be honest Russia could do far worse than load up on them.

 

Im not knocking Su57. I think fully matured it would be a fine fighter indeed. What I personally doubt is that Russia has the money to mature it to the level it will need to compete with F35. Which surely it will need to out-compete judging by how few Russia is planning to buy of them. If you want a model of what I see happening its the EE lighting. Worldbeating when new, the Government never had the money to mature it to the level it required. But that didnt stop them keeping it in service for the next 30 years.

 

Russia has new design's for aircraft, tanks and missiles coming out of its ears. Its easy to throw cash into prototyping some new machines, its entirely enough to start stocking up on them in more than trace elements. And enough to keep upgrading them to keep them current.

 

Like I say, time will tell. I hope Im wrong because its a fine looking aircraft.


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#1600 Daan

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 0930 AM

What would a JF-17 bring to Russia that it does not already have, and then better? Russia, a country with huge expanse, a mature aeronautical industry and possibly sophisticated opponents. The JF-17 was designed as a cheap, just 'sufficient' fighter bomber, to fulfill a Pakistani requirement to replace its large museum grade fleet of Mirage III derivatives and Chinese MiG-21 F13 knockoffs. Its only and limited appeal has been to other air forces without funds. Countries in the Middle East, and meanwhile in many parts Africa too, have enough dough to purchase much more capable Flankers or the latest Western aircraft.


Edited by Daan, 28 August 2019 - 1048 AM.

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