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Wheeled Afv With Skid Steering And Spring Suspension


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#1 lemd

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 2251 PM

Sometime I think about this idea, as wheeled AFV has many advantages over tracked: cheaper, good on road, consume less fuel and thus longer range. One of its disadvantages is taller than tracked because of suspension system consume the bottom space of the hull. So I think about adapting system in tracked vehicle for wheeled vehicle:

 

1/ Spring suspension like torsion bar is compact and allow for lower hull design. Lower hull means lower center of gravity and more compact vehicle

 

2/ Skid steering like tracked vehicle: main idea is that when steer, wheels need to be inclined and so consume space. Skid steer allows wider hull for crew comfortable or better side armor.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards


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#2 Walter_Sobchak

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 2309 PM

Sometime I think about this idea, as wheeled AFV has many advantages over tracked: cheaper, good on road, consume less fuel and thus longer range. One of its disadvantages is taller than tracked because of suspension system consume the bottom space of the hull. So I think about adapting system in tracked vehicle for wheeled vehicle:

 

1/ Spring suspension like torsion bar is compact and allow for lower hull design. Lower hull means lower center of gravity and more compact vehicle

 

2/ Skid steering like tracked vehicle: main idea is that when steer, wheels need to be inclined and so consume space. Skid steer allows wider hull for crew comfortable or better side armor.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards

At first glance I thought it said "Wheeled Afv With Skid Steering And Bruce Springsteen."  That's what I get for checking the forum after I am tired. 

 

Skid steering would probably not work so well when on roads or hard surfaces. 


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#3 rmgill

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 2354 PM

The British conducted tests of just this configuration after WWII. E major problem found was that the tires suffered excessively high wear on roads. Hey reverted to co ventional 6x6 form with the Saracen/Saladin/Stalwart series of vehicles.
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#4 Manic Moran

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 2359 PM

 

What do you think?

640px-AMX-10RC_017.JPG


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#5 rmgill

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 2359 PM

TV1000 test vehicle. Rolls Royce meteorite engine, 6x6 configuration.

http://blog.hemmings...le-in-the-world

TV1000_Rhino%2C_Bovington_Tank_Museum.jp
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#6 rmgill

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 0003 AM

http://bps.britishpa...053740.mp4.m3u8

Pathe video showing Rhino.
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#7 Colin

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 0011 AM

 

 

What do you think?

640px-AMX-10RC_017.JPG

 

they use skid steering and the Saracen/Stalwart/Saladin family all required you to bump up a curb to reduce transmission windup.


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#8 rmgill

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 0013 AM

Saladin and the like have conventional steering on the front two axles.
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#9 Loopycrank

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 0621 AM

Skid steering would save some room because you wouldn't need space for the wheels to rotate.  However, the gearboxes needed to steer skid-steering vehicles are much more complex.


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#10 CaptLuke

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 0805 AM

TV1000 test vehicle. Rolls Royce meteorite engine, 6x6 configuration.

http://blog.hemmings...le-in-the-world
 

 

From 'AFV WEapons Profile 44 - Ferret and Fox

AVR and TV 1000

The original AVR design put forward by FVRDE envisaged a tracked vehicle. However in 1963, FVRDE 
proposed an alternative, six wheeled AVR, weighing 13.6 tonnes, and armed with Swingfire missiles and a
76mm gun. The design took two forms, turreted, and turretless, the latter being attractive for a reconnaissance 
vehicle, as it resulted in a reduced silhouette. In both cases, however, the wheeled AVR was to be skid 
steered, like a tracked vehicle. The use of skid steering in the AVR followed the construction of the TV 1000, a 
20 tonne test vehicle, designed in 1956-57 as a possible basis for a wheeled tank, the thinking being that the 
hull could be wider in relation to it's overall width, because no space was needed for the turning of it's wheels.
However, the TV 1000 suffered from the same turning problems as exhibited by tracked vehicles, and in
addition, suffered from rapid tyre wear, and poor stability when running fast on roads.
The AVR proposals were rejected in 1963,when it was decide that they were too heavy, especially for air-
portability, still considered important by planners. Therefore, in 1964, two new proposals were put forward by
FVRDE. One was for a family of light tracked vehicles, which became the CVR(T), the other being for a series 
of light, 6 to 8 tonnes, six wheeled vehicles with skid steering. This latter proposal was rejected, in part as a 
result of trials conducted in 1964, which demonstrated the fundamental weakness of the skid steering of the 
TV 1000 on soft ground."

 

hat tip to robunos on http://www.secretprojects.co.uk for posting this originally


Edited by CaptLuke, 13 September 2013 - 0806 AM.

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#11 Mr King

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 1116 AM

Which makes you wonder, how did those cunning French get it to work?

 

Or did they just accept the inherent problems with a skid steering design for its benefits. 


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#12 Colin

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 1534 PM

Saladin and the like have conventional steering on the front two axles.

Sorry I should have been clearer I was referring only to the French armoured car in regards to skid steering. I suspect they also suffer windup issues on hard roads.


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#13 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 1822 PM

With airlocker or other forms of locking differentials, not only across the axles but between the drives, you'd have no significant windup issues.  IF they remember to release the lockers!!  Also, compared to a T/T, these vehicles have insignificant per axle loading.  A T/T with 20k per axle can go a decent ways without breaking the axles or differential if the jackass steering wheel holder forgets to unlock.  I expect a AFV with maybe 5-7k per axle to slip the tires much more easily.  S/F.....Ken M


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#14 Colin

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 1917 PM

I had ARB lockers front and rear in my landrover, even on dirt I couldn't always make a hard turn, had to be choosy when to use the front axle locker.


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#15 rmgill

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 2009 PM

Pretty much from the dingo to the fox, the System on the Saracen and family vehicles is locked one side to the other with a single side to side differential. The design is in part to keep overall height low (except in the case of the stalwart). The design also helps a bellied vehicle retain some level of traction on several wheels making it harder to really get stuck. I watched our dingo get bellied and back out at Michaux Foerest this last weekend (much to the amazement of our driver who's a life long farm boy). A locker setup would be better but was probably not considered feasible back in the 50s. Though having just one differential does allow more room in the hull low down.
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#16 Ivanhoe

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 2022 PM

You can solve your drive system windup problems with a hybrid electric drive. Plus that makes every AFV a backup FOB generator.

 

Otherwise, it seems to me that skid steer is fine for long-range offroad AFVs.  But in urban/suburban environments, where wheels ought to have an advantage over tracks, they are kind of a "worst of both worlds" to some extent.


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#17 rmgill

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 2026 PM

I kind of wonder if a little bit of steer would solve some issues of twitchy ness at road speeds with gross changes in direction still skid steering.
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#18 lemd

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 2222 PM

@all: thanks, I didn't know it was tested before.

 

As I see, most current wheeled AFVs are still very tall compare to tracked vehicle. Is there any design using normal steer system but powertrain doesn't consume bottom space?


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#19 rmgill

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 2356 PM

Lemd, look at the setup of a Daimler Dingo compared to a Canadian Lynx. 

Here's my old car. 
dingowcarrier.jpg

Lynx%20Canadian%20Scout%20Car%202.jpg


The gross difference in height is due to the presence of a differential and conventional axles on the Lynx. On a dingo, the drive shafts spread out from the differential that is H shaped and under the center of the car running to individual bevel boxes inboard of the wheel stations inside the frame rails. The more conventional axles of the Lynx require more height which makes for a taller vehicle and which means the fuel tank is placed outside of the armor in the side boxes. The british Dingo has its fuel tank behind the driver. 

Ferrets are more efficient for space with the driver sitting on his seat that is fixed to the floor of the hull. Propshafts to the bevel boxes run to either side of the driver from the differential case which the gunner's seat is mounted atop. The radio shelf is mounted atop the transmission. 

Seen here in my Ferret. 
standard.jpg

The saracen and saladin make use of these spaces behind or forwards of the differential respectively for either needed stowage space for fuel tanks or for other gear. I think the Saladin's driver sits in a similar position. The saracen has it's fuel tank under the floor in this space. 
579.jpg

Damn, now I want a saracen again...*sigh*
 


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#20 Colin

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 0010 AM

Most of the French wheeled AFV's seem to be designed with Africa in mind, which is quite reasonable considering their influences and involvements there.


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