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#5701 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 2028 PM

The question everobody was asking.

 

"Why did Turkey use M60’s to spearhead its Syria intervention?"

http://www.offiziere.ch/?p=28962

They still haven't said, but they lost three men dead when two of their tanks got hit by Daesh:

 

 

327534d4c1da4187f9c8c926e945a4887d5eceb3

 

Istanbul (AFP) - Three Turkish soldiers were killed and four wounded on Tuesday in a rocket attack by Islamic State (IS) militants in northern Syria, in the first deadly attack on Ankara's armed forces to be blamed on the jihadists in Turkey's cross-border incursion.

 

Turkey launched an unprecedented operation inside Syria on August 24. Dubbed Euphrates Shield, it backs pro-Ankara opposition fighters in the goal of rooting out IS jihadists and Kurdish militia from the border area.

 

A senior Turkish official said two soldiers were killed on the spot and five injured in the attack by IS.

 

One of the wounded soldiers later died in hospital despite all attempts to save his life, lifting the death toll to three, an army statement quoted by NTV television said.

The fatalities are the first of the Turkish operation inside Syria to be blamed on IS and Ankara's biggest single loss of life in the offensive to date.

 

Nice photo of the M60T.  The reactive armor is clearly visible.


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#5702 Mistral

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0119 AM

I find it most instructive that what is good for Syria is not good for Ukraine or other part of the former Soviet Union.

In other news the noose is closed again. The SAA and friends have taken the artillery school and are now physically astride the Khan Touman-Ramouseh route. This is no doubt a bit of a disappointment for the Friends of Al-Quaeda in the West and there will no doubt be renewed chlorine gas attacks as appropriate.

I have little doubt that platoons of NATO forces will be sent to the Idlib and Latakia frontiers soon.

 

Confess you do have a crystal ball don't you?  :P

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-37291182


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#5703 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0230 AM

 

 

The whole "failed state" ignores that so-called failed states are and were still, well, states in some sense or another. Okay, maybe not the monopolistic, modern nation state, but a somewhat functioning (if not always hologenic etc.) structure of governance. Besides, every state "fails" in some metric or the other.So what that Syria is turning into a group of loosely attached fiefdoms? If that is what works - then that's not a failed state per se. I mean the Burgundian/Spanish/Austrian Netherlands are often qualified as "failed",with competing local structures and a distant and frequently impotent central government running things. But that state did manage to survive for ca. 300 years. Not thát bad, no?

Ive got one word to say to that. Libya. It provided an outpouring of refugees and migrants that quite clearly has had an impact on the stability of Europe. Here is another one, Somalia, whose failed state status made regional piracy in a major shipping lane a world problem that required prodigious assets to combat. Or another one, Afghanistan, the consequences of which I need not underline. So we can either recognise threats on our periphery need to be cleared up at some point, or at least stabilised, or we are going to continue to suffer the problems from them.
Yes, but my point was rather that a feudal kind of setup can (though not must) work as well - if perhaps not better in "countries" like Syria than a central or 'traditional' state.
We always lament the lack of a functioning government in places like Somalia, Libya etc., but can we expect much better if we only want to accept a proper modern "not failed" state to run things (when the conditions for such a state just aren't there nor likely to be for geographical, historical social etc.reasons)?

 

A feudal setup is fine, as long as what you get is some form of security that stops people using a country either as a free passage zone or as a training base for terrorists (whcih syria was doing even before it collapsed incidentally) Jordan and Oman seem to fit that kind of bill of feudal state, and although in the case of Jordan they seem to be trying to make their way towards some form of democratic representation, it seems a slow progression. Which in light of what happened in Egypt is probably no bad thing.

 

 

 

Ive got no problem with anarchism as a concept, the only problem is every time someone tries it they cant really seem to get their head around the problem of other people abusing the privilege. Which I guess is the same problem for Democracy too admittedly. :D


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#5704 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0233 AM

Iraq and Syria have been potential failed states since Sykes-Picot. Arbitrary borders, lack of national identity, brutal autocratic rulers coupled with pervasive corruption. Not both have lost significant portions of their territory to insurgencies, and require propping up by outside powers to sustain.  If they are not failed states, then they are certainly in the running.

I might have guessed it was the British to blame. :D

 

I wouldnt classify Iraq as a failed state. Not quite yet anyway. Failing state, well its hard to deny that. And if you pulled the plug of western support, highly likely it would end up like Syria in a heartbeat.


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#5705 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0238 AM

You silly people, trying to make a bunch of incestuous tribal shitheads conform to your pretentious Westfalian standards.  

 

Do you spend your free time trying to stack BB's too?  S/F....Ken M 


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#5706 lucklucky

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0620 AM

 

Iraq and Syria have been potential failed states since Sykes-Picot. Arbitrary borders, lack of national identity, brutal autocratic rulers coupled with pervasive corruption. Not both have lost significant portions of their territory to insurgencies, and require propping up by outside powers to sustain.  If they are not failed states, then they are certainly in the running.

I might have guessed it was the British to blame. :D

 

I wouldnt classify Iraq as a failed state. Not quite yet anyway. Failing state, well its hard to deny that. And if you pulled the plug of western support, highly likely it would end up like Syria in a heartbeat.

 

 

What country does not have "arbitrary borders" ? maybe an island...


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#5707 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0625 AM

You silly people, trying to make a bunch of incestuous tribal shitheads conform to your pretentious Westfalian standards.  

 

Do you spend your free time trying to stack BB's too?  S/F....Ken M 

 

Yeah, well at least we propose voting for someone that says you can build a big wall around all our problems. :P


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#5708 swerve

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0833 AM

 

 

 

New Zealand wasn't a penal colony, only Australia - & not all the colonies. The death rate on the transports was similar to that among voluntary migrants, such as my many-greats uncle George Washington (1804-1880). His wife died at sea, & their infant son soon after arrival in New Zealand in 1847. He married the widow of his comrade James Massey, who sailed on the same ship & also died either at sea or just after arrival. It was common. The first convict fleet to Australia had a low death rate by the standards of long sea voyages at the time. The second fleet had a high death rate en route, but that prompted the authorities to improve conditions so it didn't happen again. BTW, voluntary migrant ships were less regulated than convict transports & suffered higher death rates overall.

 

The initially high death rate among the Port Jackson settlers was pretty common in initial settlements. The seasons were back to front, nobody had tried farming there before - everything was hard. Note that many had been sentenced to death, & transportation to the colonies was in place of execution.

 

The Australian colonies had many 'ticket of leave men', i.e. convicts who were allowed to live free within the colony, as long as they behaved well. They could marry, own land, run a business. & bring their families from Britain. Convicts who had a fixed-term sentence (most of them) could go home at the end, but most chose not to. Life was better for them in the colonies than what they expected to return to.

 

That is exactly why I mention “high death rates among newcomers, both free migrants and prisoners, caused by hard climate and basic conditions” not some kind of kill intent. When Black Sea coast of modern Sochi and Abkhazia were initially populated by Rus Cossacks, infant mortality in settlements was next to 100%  - until swamps eliminated and eucalyptus forests planted. Now this places are subtropical paradise. The same with Siberia – Norilsk was deadly place when founded, now it is more or less ok (climate is still very bad, but infrastructure allows people to live there with comfort). My wife was born in  Norilsk, her father migrated there from Ukraine, her mother – from Altai, both places with good climate, both by own will.

'ticket of leave men” practice is identical to Russian Empire and Soviet practice. Siberia is still full of people with German, Polish, Baltic etc routes – some of them are descendants of prisoners who stayed there, other are descendants of volunteer settlers looking for arable land or good money on gold fields etc.

 

Norilsk's in a different class from Sydney. It was officially founded in 1935, though Wikipedia says there were some settlers there in the 1920s. The first fleet to Australia sailed in 1787 & once it arrived was over a year away from help (the time for a fast ship to sail both ways), with 18th century technology & medicine, in an environment unknown to the settlers or those in charge. I don't believe there was anything like the same degree of ignorance about the Arctic in Russia in the 1930s, it wasn't as remote, & it had 20th century tools & medicine, radios, etc.

 

Arctic mining settlements in Canada or Alaska in the early 20th century didn't have high death rates.


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#5709 Mistral

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0854 AM

There was another attack on two Turkish AFVs with 3 dead and 4 wounded.  No info on what type though, news article said tanks so it could be anything.


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#5710 Paul G.

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 0904 AM

Stuart I believe half that equation was French ;).

 

Lucky do some research on how Iraq and Syria were formed.  Sykes-Picot would be a good place to start.


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#5711 Roman Alymov

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1020 AM

 


 

Norilsk's in a different class from Sydney. It was officially founded in 1935, though Wikipedia says there were some settlers there in the 1920s. The first fleet to Australia sailed in 1787 & once it arrived was over a year away from help (the time for a fast ship to sail both ways), with 18th century technology & medicine, in an environment unknown to the settlers or those in charge. I don't believe there was anything like the same degree of ignorance about the Arctic in Russia in the 1930s, it wasn't as remote, & it had 20th century tools & medicine, radios, etc.

 

Arctic mining settlements in Canada or Alaska in the early 20th century didn't have high death rates.

 

Not exactly so. Cooper from what is now Norilsk region was used by Russians since XVI century, but before invention of aviation this places where only linked to civilization couple of month each year, when Arctic Ocean and rivers free from ice. Even in our days Norilsk is only connected to “mainland” or “continent” (as locals call populated regions) by air in winter, as there is no land route – only by sea via Dudinka port or by river from Krasnoyarsk (~1500 km south). My father-in-law in Soviet time, when taking family to summer holidays, was sending his car in advance by boat up river to Krasnoyarsk (~2 weeks to reach), then, in 2 weeks, boarding plane to Krasnoyarsk to take his car and drive ~5000 km west to his native Ukraine and then to Black sea shore – all in reverse order when going back. All cargo traffic is waiting for open water season (except urgent cargo transported by planes). I think, Australia is more accessible transport-wise.
 

Overall death rate in Norilsk labor camps was 1 in 4, but it was much higher during WWII (for obvious reasons) so in peace time it was lower (for comparison sake, in French Guiana death rate was 50k out of 70k convicts).


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#5712 QOHC32

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1108 AM

I thought M6OT-Sabra was almost invincible :( Seems like a side hit.

https://www.youtube....h?v=FlUK3QVU2IY


Edited by QOHC32, 07 September 2016 - 1108 AM.

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#5713 Roman Alymov

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1131 AM


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#5714 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1139 AM

I've just had a quick skim through Wikipedia's article on the "Sabra" main battle tank and there are a couple of things which really grabbed my attention.

 

Firstly, that they're still equipped with an internal 60mm mortar.  I recall this was discussed quite at length on this site on at least one occasion.  Do we know if the Turkish tankers have actually used it?

 

Secondly, I was unaware that there are apparently three versions of the Sabra.  Are there any specific features seen on the tanks deployed in Syria which identify them as one particular model?

 

Thanks.


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#5715 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1150 AM

 

You silly people, trying to make a bunch of incestuous tribal shitheads conform to your pretentious Westfalian standards.  

 

Do you spend your free time trying to stack BB's too?  S/F....Ken M 

 

Yeah, well at least we propose voting for someone that says you can build a big wall around all our problems. :P

 

http://www.news.com....004134fa6e050a3

 

 

What are you trying to say?  S/F....Ken M


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#5716 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1153 AM

I thought M6OT-Sabra was almost invincible :( Seems like a side hit.

https://www.youtube....h?v=FlUK3QVU2IY

All tanks are vulnerable when just sitting still like an idiot.

 

Wait...a Greek lamenting the Turks getting jammed up?

 

WTF is happening here?  S/F....Ken M


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#5717 QOHC32

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1203 PM

 

I thought M6OT-Sabra was almost invincible :( Seems like a side hit.

https://www.youtube....h?v=FlUK3QVU2IY

All tanks are vulnerable when just sitting still like an idiot.

 

Wait...a Greek lamenting the Turks getting jammed up?

 

WTF is happening here?  S/F....Ken M

 

Of course you are right regarding the tactical movement(not) of the tank forces in the specific incident, but after all we are all fond of tanks :)


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#5718 Josh

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1208 PM

The exhaust from the missile looked pretty noticable compared to the TOW shots I've seen. Anyone have any idea on the type? Looks like it had to be something slow and SACLOS guided; engines appeared side mounted like TOW.


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#5719 Guest_Jason L_*

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1222 PM

I thought M6OT-Sabra was almost invincible :( Seems like a side hit.

https://www.youtube....h?v=FlUK3QVU2IY

 

Almost invincible to like....machine gun fire.....


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#5720 GARGEAN

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 1226 PM

I thought M6OT-Sabra was almost invincible :( Seems like a side hit.

https://www.youtube....h?v=FlUK3QVU2IY

Invincible to what? o_0 It's still M60, with add-on armor, yes, but nothing comparable with modern MBT's. And it's hardly a side hit. First one was almost frontal, with possibility to side hit at very big angle, second one was pure frontal.


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