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alt-hist c&rsenal pre-WW1

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#21 bojan

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 0724 AM

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

After the experience of the Balkan wars Serbia decided that next rifle should be shorter, about 100cm vs 113 for model 1899 and 1910 Mausers (which was already ~12cm shorter than Gew 98 and 14cm shorter than Mannlicher 1895). Order for those was supposed to be placed in late 1914, with idea that first call would get those, while 2nd call would get 1899 and  1910, and 1880/07 conversions, ex-Bulgarian Mannlichers and Mosins going to a 3rd call, finally replacing BP single shots. Turkish Mausers were supposed to be rebarreled to a 7mm and converted to carbines for artillery, but "war were declared"...


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#22 Panzermann

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 1658 PM

 

 

to have a common cartridge with machine guns I vote for 7*57 in a P14/M1917 alike pattern.

 

 

Or Mexican pattern Arisaka in 7mm. :) Already "short rifle" format...

tumblr_mv5gztY2401rwjpnyo1_1280.jpg

 

 

yes! Mexican Arisaka. Quintessentially japanese in copying and improving on a foreign idea. :)

 

 

But I think you can cycle the P14 faster with the position of the bolt handle. Although nobody stops us from putting a differently shaped bolt handle on the Arisaka. whoch goes together with the next point:

 

 

Indeed we can test this with the simple exercise of setting up targets in formed ranks and skirmish then firing with assorted weapons to determine effect.

 

skirmish warfare, partisans, heck just raiding a neighbouring village has been the way things have been done on the Balkans forever. So a shorter handier rifle that is easy to load and cycle should fit the requirement nicely. It does not need too much foresight IMHO to predict, that massed rifle fire at long range is being replaced by machine guns.  No need for marking to 1000 klafters or volley sights then. If no machine guns are present the ranges will be shorter in a skirmish anyway I think, if fire is being massed in lieu of MGs.

 

 

Which brings us to sights.  I like those french wide front posts with a line down the middle for finer aiming if needed.  for the rear v notch on a tangent is the default I guess, but not really a good sight picture. Ideas?


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#23 Panzermann

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 1702 PM

 

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

After the experience of the Balkan wars Serbia decided that next rifle should be shorter, about 100cm vs 113 for model 1899 and 1910 Mausers (which was already ~12cm shorter than Gew 98 and 14cm shorter than Mannlicher 1895). Order for those was supposed to be placed in late 1914, with idea that first call would get those, while 2nd call would get 1899 and  1910, and 1880/07 conversions, ex-Bulgarian Mannlichers and Mosins going to a 3rd call, finally replacing BP single shots. Turkish Mausers were supposed to be rebarreled to a 7mm and converted to carbines for artillery, but "war were declared"...

 

 

I see you also watch this amateur southerner couple on pornhub mistreating elderly european ladies. :D


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#24 Simon Tan

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 2205 PM

I like to see my target. Big rear mounted aperture. Battlesight and 100m increments to 600. I still like the M95 Stutzen…..

 

or my Browning-Mannlicher slide-action model of 1912!


Edited by Simon Tan, 17 May 2018 - 2206 PM.

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#25 TonyE

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0537 AM

 

 

That was the next bone....do we keep musket length rifles which are only needed for rank firing.

After the experience of the Balkan wars Serbia decided that next rifle should be shorter, about 100cm vs 113 for model 1899 and 1910 Mausers (which was already ~12cm shorter than Gew 98 and 14cm shorter than Mannlicher 1895). Order for those was supposed to be placed in late 1914, with idea that first call would get those, while 2nd call would get 1899 and  1910, and 1880/07 conversions, ex-Bulgarian Mannlichers and Mosins going to a 3rd call, finally replacing BP single shots. Turkish Mausers were supposed to be rebarreled to a 7mm and converted to carbines for artillery, but "war were declared"...

 

 

I see you also watch this amateur southerner couple on pornhub mistreating elderly european ladies. :D

 

 

The ways of the Tankovians are unexplainable to outsiders, Tankovia truly is a universe unto itself. :P


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#26 bojan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0638 AM

...skirmish warfare, partisans, heck just raiding a neighbouring village has been the way things have been done on the Balkans forever. So a shorter handier rifle that is easy to load and cycle should fit the requirement nicely...

Not only that, but people were generally short and long rifles were not liked - main complain about Mosin in Serbian service was that. Anyway, since it is related I have full list of complains by Serbian soldiers:

 

- Main problem was too much length, 130cm vs 114cm for Serbian Mausers. That made problems since average height of the soldier was 165-167cm (note that Montenegrin soldiers did not report that problem as much, since average height of their soldier was about 177-178cm). Problem got worse once it was found out you need to have a bayonet on in order for it to be properly sighted. This was especially noticeable in prone position, or firing from a tranches;

 

- Way less reliable than Mauser, more susceptible to failures, especially bolt, which was main source of problems;

 

- Long sight line length aided long range shooting (once people realize you need bayonet on for it), but hindered quick shooting.

 

- Sights were bad for a rapid target acquisition. Sight is bad for quick range change.

 

- More susceptible to dirt tham Mauser, plus more open surfaces that enabled dirt to come inside.

 

- Only good thing was excellent accuracy when properly sighted, in post-ww1 trials, while estimated as "partially suitable" it was most accurate rifle trialed;

 

- Some of the rifles came with had old sights, but new ammo while some came with new sights and old ammo (I am not sure if this was Russian or local fuckup)

 

Post war trials:

Suitable (in order of preference):

- Serbian 1910, German 98, and Austrian 1912 Mausers  - main problem was length which was seen as trivial to solve
- Romanian Mannlicher 1893  - length and rimmed ammo

- A-H Mannlicher 1895 - length and rimmed ammo
- Lee-Enfield - main problem - shortest sight base, not suitable for very high pressure ammo, rimmed ammo - while it got lowest score notes say all of those are good and that differences minor and not in favor of one or other in any significant way.
 

 

Partially suitable:
- Mosin (best accuracy of the all tested, but nothing more to commend it)
- Serbian 1899, Spanish 1893, Turkish 1890 Mausers - lesser strength of action, somewhat marginal for 7.9x57mm which was already decided on as future cartridge
- Berthier with 5 rounds - hard to convert to 7.9x57, long, rimmed ammo, weak action;

 

Not suitable
- Berthier with 3 rounds - too little ammo, convertible to 5 round configuration however, weak action, hard to convert to 7.9x57
- Carcano - barrel life only 3000 rounds, weak action, long, hard to convert to 7.9x57 
- Lebel - obsolete tube magazine, rimmed ammo, weak action, non-suitable for conversion to short rifle
- 8mm Kropatschek - same + very weak action
- Vetterli (does not say which one, but I suspect 1915 conversion, since all other rifles were small bore smokeless) - nothing positive was found out.

Vetterlis were only ones to be scrapped, and considering that Werndls and other single shots were kept it says a lot about it...


Edited by bojan, 18 May 2018 - 0643 AM.

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#27 Simon Tan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0820 AM

Most enigmatic is Major General  Engelsohn (sp?), a Swedish émigré apparently, who serves as Inspector of Cavalry. At his insistence the Ministry has ordered several variants of the Mauser C96 pistol for evaluation as a future cavalry armament.


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#28 bojan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0830 AM

Cavalry is of limited use in the most of the Balkans due the difficult terrain. Dragoon type "mounted infantry" would be much more useful.

Serbia considered C-96 for Chetnik assault groups pre-WW1 but never got them. Some of those had private purchase ones.


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#29 Simon Tan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0844 AM

Most Tankovian cavalry are dragoons, essentially used for scouting and flank protection. I will leave General Engelsohn to describe the Guard Cavalry Regiment which has all the spiffy finery for parades. 


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#30 TonyE

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0925 AM

Most enigmatic is Major General  Engelsohn (sp?), a Swedish émigré apparently, who serves as Inspector of Cavalry. At his insistence the Ministry has ordered several variants of the Mauser C96 pistol for evaluation as a future cavalry armament.

 

Major General Harrisohn, if you may. (stiffupperlip mode on)

 

The Mauser C96s come with wooden holster stocks, the officers from the various regiments are swooning like young girls at the sight of them.


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#31 TonyE

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0934 AM

Most Tankovian cavalry are dragoons, essentially used for scouting and flank protection. I will leave General Engelsohn to describe the Guard Cavalry Regiment which has all the spiffy finery for parades. 

 

Curved light cavalry sabers are used for all dragoon and mounted rifles regiments, the Guard Carabineers Regiment use heavy pallasch swords. French style dragoon helmets (with black tails and brass details) are used for all dragoon regiments, the Carabineers have a similar helmet in copper with more extensive details/ornaments, the mounted rifles wear regulation kepis. 


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#32 Simon Tan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 0951 AM

So are the dragoons going to adopt the short rifle? We can just put appropriate slings for them. We cannot afford to give them both a rifle and a Pistol.
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#33 TonyE

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 1033 AM

So are the dragoons going to adopt the short rifle? We can just put appropriate slings for them. We cannot afford to give them both a rifle and a Pistol.

 

C96 for squadron and troop officers ("encouraged" purchase), nco`s and corporals will receive theirs from the regiment, carbines/short rifles for privates. 


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#34 bojan

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 1644 PM

Think about guerrilla and commando war, assault groups and such stuff. You have Serbians, Bulgarians and Greek in Macedonia before and during Balkan wars to use as an example.


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#35 Simon Tan

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 2155 PM

Much joy from finding out that the Hungarians (FEG) had a Model 14 straight pull in 7x57 under consideration just before War Were Declared. Mauser type 5 shot flush magazine. Since there is some agreement on the matter of calibre, i.e. an 'intermediate' in 7mm Mauser, perhaps we can agree on a straight pull (General Bojanovic frowns) using stripper clips (saves on proprietary en bloc clips since nobody else has them). 

 

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann14.htm

 

Using a 20" barrel, the Standard Rifle has slinging arrangements for both infantry and cavalry. A German style slot in the stock is proposed in lieu of rear side swivels. Bayonet lugs are standard and have no impact on those who do not use them.

 

Later batches will feature a revised turned down and swept back bolt handle that places it right beside the trigger. This leads to a rapid firing technique which uses the middle finger to pull the trigger, leaving the thumb and forefinger on the handle, which in turn will lead into extended magazines to exploit this.


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#36 bojan

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 0536 AM

Straight pull is OK if all rifles will be imported, but if you want a local production Mauser is best one.


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#37 Simon Tan

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 0648 AM

I fear that even by the 1910s, Tankovia is unlike to have the level of industrialization to be able to produce barrel blanks let alone the steel needed to make such. I was just rewatching the Ross MkIII episode and their pains would probably be less than our own as a far smaller and less affluent country. Thus for the near term, all these rifles would have to be produced abroad.

 

The first step might be to manufacture our ammunition domestically, rather than rifles.

 

As far as domestic rifle production, I thought we might start with a modest project to convert Martini-Henry's into 7x57mm to serve as training rifles and to equip reserve and militia forces. They would use the same barrel length and profile as our standard rifle as well as fittings like sights, bayonets and slings. These would be not dissimilar to the Turkish Peabody-Martinis converted to 7.65x53mmR. This should accelerate the fielding and conversion to all 7x57mm from the hodge podge of ammunition and rifles. 


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#38 Panzermann

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 1322 PM

Why not buying surplus Remington Rolling Blocks and convert those? It is a good single shot, and I don't know if British arsenals will let go of MArtini-Henries? RRBs OTOH are nearly ubiquitous and even chambered for black powder strong enough to take nitro barrels.

 

 

You touch on an important point, simon: how much can the Royal Tankovian Army (I think we have a monarch?) spend? how well (or bad) is Tankovia off? Looking at photos of bulgarian, serbian, romanian troops they look more like a bunch of hobos that have found rifles most of the time.

 

 

Straight pull is OK if all rifles will be imported, but if you want a local production Mauser is best one.

 

Alternative would be Steyr turn bolts (which are sorta kinda 88 commission rifles), either import or license manufacture.


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#39 bojan

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 1354 PM

 

You touch on an important point, simon: how much can the Royal Tankovian Army (I think we have a monarch?) spend? how well (or bad) is Tankovia off? Looking at photos of bulgarian, serbian, romanian troops they look more like a bunch of hobos that have found rifles most of the time.

 

Serbian green M.1908 uniform was quite decent, with short and practical blouse, pants narrow in the lower part, but large ammo pouches sucked.. But there was never enough of it, even in Balkan wars so only 1st call and some 2nd call units got them. Older blue (IIRC M.1894) uniform was much worse (thinner material, no cammo factor), but there was not enough of those either. so 3rd call used whatever they had (usually not a lot). I suspect situation was same in Bulgaria and Romania. Also lacking were shoes, so opanci were often used.

 

Bulgarian one was also quite good, but ammo pouches were also too large.

 

Best thing would be something as Serbian/Bulgarian uniform, but with Austrian pattern web gear and ammo pouches.

 

PS. Hand grenades, learn from Serbia and Bulgaria.

 


Edited by bojan, 21 May 2018 - 1404 PM.

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#40 Panzermann

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 1414 PM

Being the footwear of farmers a pair of opanak does not seem too bad to me? Remind me of mocassins. Probably suck for long marches though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak

 

 

 

But as I said, formally and bureaucratically introduced uniforms are all nice and dandy and may even be adequate to good for the purpose. Especially what is up with bad weather gear? We are talking balkan mountains after all.

 

But if Tankovian Royal Treasury cannot pay to equip the army with uniforms for all, it is not much use anyway.


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